Wayne State Saturday Postgame

What an ugly, terrible game. I don't see how you can spin this in any positive light.

Davenport was bad. Maybe he just didn't see one of the first two goals, but to give up three goals like that is awful. It seemed like, in the first twelve minutes, the only times Wayne State had the puck in our end was when they were scoring. 3 goals on 5 shots against Troy.

Scrivens came on, and played pretty damn well for a backup. A lot of people wanted to see him play tonight, and they got their chance. He made some nice saves, stopped the penalty shot, but then got a little confident and ended up getting called for a roughing call that led to Wayne's fifth goal.

It's always a bad sign when you have lots of PP chances early and can't convert. If we had had any success on that string of PPs in the first period, I have no doubt that Cornell would have won.

Wayne State did not seem to me to be as bad a team as their record/past suggests. Yes, they were definitely several notches below Cornell, but they played aggressive, physical defense that gave us some serious trouble at times. This was obviously a should-not-ever-lose game for Cornell, but Wayne State wasn't ready to roll over.

Lynah crowd was weak, but that's expected over break. It's tough for the Faithful to stay positive and energetic down 3-0 to a Wayne State, but when you have facetimers and middle-schoolers and hockey-ignorant Cornell moms in the student sections, it's going to be tough to keep the crowd in the game.

Wayne State should be thankful this Thanksgiving break that Cornell has handed them what will likely be the highlight of their season: a win at Lynah. Schafer's got to "yell the right stuff" between this game and tomorrow's so that tomorrow's result will be what today's should have been: a win.

Well, besides the fact that Greening (twice) and Milo scored, the positives to me are that (1) Scrivens saw action and was decent, and (2) this is the type of loss that Schafer historically has used to get the team to play consistently hard. We'll see if this squad shows a similar resolve.

scoop85
Well, besides the fact that Greening (twice) and Milo scored, the positives to me are that (1) Scrivens saw action and was decent, and (2) this is the type of loss that Schafer historically has used to get the team to play consistently hard. We'll see if this squad shows a similar resolve.

I hope you're right, and that we'll be able to look at this as a turning point. It just seems like Cornell has not played well over Thanksgiving break recently. We had shaky 5-4 and 5-3 wins over Niagara last year and a 3-3 tie to Mercyhurst a couple years before that.

I just got back from my first game at lynah this year, and I must say... I can't believe cornell lost.

Cornell was the better team, they just didn;t seem to want it. They came out extremely flat and WSU took advantage of it.

from an unbiased perspective, the officiating was pretty good. Maybe alittle one sided against wayne state, but Murphy called a pretty good game. The penatly shot, the penalty to scrivens, and sawada's cross-check were all really good calls which the Faithful didn;t like, but I had a perfect view of all of them, and they were good calls.

Scrivens was head and shoulders above davenport in net. however, neither of them looked comfortable in goal.

the question is... which cornell team will you see tommorrow? the one that came out tonight, or some other team which I am yet to see?

Dpperk29
from an unbiased perspective, the officiating was pretty good. Maybe alittle one sided against wayne state, but Murphy called a pretty good game. The penatly shot, the penalty to scrivens, and sawada's cross-check were all really good calls which the Faithful didn;t like, but I had a perfect view of all of them, and they were good calls.

Well I could argue with you all night about the officials, but...what about the puck in the second period that was in the crease and he called it dead. The puck was completely uncovered and all we would have had to do would be to tap it in. As soon as he called it dead, he realized his mistake and tapped his chest, showing he knew he was wrong.


Then there was the diving on Sawada when he was held. However what bothered me the most was that he called alot of ticky tacky penalties in the first two periods and then let those same ones go by in the third. That was something they were to change this year, no more "let them play in the third". I don't know what the rule is on a goalie checking, but he did check a player with the puck, if that's a penalty so be it.

I don't know if it was mentioned on the game thread...But, Ken Dryden attended the game at Lynah tonight. He was most accommodating in giving autographs and little conversation about those great Cornell teams that he played on.

ithacat

oceanst41
I mean if you think about it they didn't play awful.

Sorry, not trying to pick a fight, but Wayne State is one of the worst teams in college hockey. For most of the game they skated harder, worked harder, and simply hustled more than Cornell. I never really saw any urgency by Cornell & this after having Schafer call out the team in the media. That's not a good sign.

Well, they did out shoot them 23-16 in the last 2 periods, and 11-6 in the third. I think they really did show urgency after their terrible first period.

I pulled this from the game thread since it belongs here.

Jim Hyla
but...what about the puck in the second period that was in the crease and he called it dead. The puck was completely uncovered and all we would have had to do would be to tap it in. As soon as he called it dead, he realized his mistake and tapped his chest, showing he knew he was wrong.

Those things happen. Murphy was on the other side of the goalie, and probably thought the goalie had it. He was probably trying to protect the goalie from the hacks that always follow. He owned up to it, it happens to everyone.

Sawada's dive was deffinatly a dive, good call there. I really can't think of a cornell penalty which wasn't warranted.

n/m

Jim Hyla

ithacat

Sorry, not trying to pick a fight, but Wayne State is one of the worst teams in college hockey. For most of the game they skated harder, worked harder, and simply hustled more than Cornell. I never really saw any urgency by Cornell & this after having Schafer call out the team in the media. That's not a good sign.

Well, they did out shoot them 23-16 in the last 2 periods, and 11-6 in the third. I think they really did show urgency after their terrible first period.

I pulled this from the game thread since it belongs here.

At the same time, Cornell was just content to go through the motions. While we have done this in past years (see last year's Niagara series as an example), we are not as good as we have been in the past... Teams that have a tremendous amount of confidence, experience and talent can (and do) put it on cruise against lesser opponents, however, it is clear after tonight that we are not one of those teams.

Dpperk29

Jim Hyla
but...what about the puck in the second period that was in the crease and he called it dead. The puck was completely uncovered and all we would have had to do would be to tap it in. As soon as he called it dead, he realized his mistake and tapped his chest, showing he knew he was wrong.

Those things happen. Murphy was on the other side of the goalie, and probably thought the goalie had it. He was probably trying to protect the goalie from the hacks that always follow. He owned up to it, it happens to everyone.

Sawada's dive was deffinatly a dive, good call there. I really can't think of a cornell penalty which wasn't warranted.

Like I said we could argue all night, but why didn't you go up to Clarkson to see their biggest win of the year. I've made that road trip up and back in the same day.Sure your trip is an hour longer but hey it's worth it.

Jim Hyla

ithacat

oceanst41
I mean if you think about it they didn't play awful.

Sorry, not trying to pick a fight, but Wayne State is one of the worst teams in college hockey. For most of the game they skated harder, worked harder, and simply hustled more than Cornell. I never really saw any urgency by Cornell & this after having Schafer call out the team in the media. That's not a good sign.

Well, they did out shoot them 23-16 in the last 2 periods, and 11-6 in the third. I think they really did show urgency after their terrible first period.

I pulled this from the game thread since it belongs here.

Outshooting Wayne State 12-10 in the 2nd is hardly a constraining effort. Perhaps there were some moments of desperation in the 3rd that some may consider displaying urgency. All I know is that it's urgent I go to sleep because I'm desperate to forget this evening.

Pathetic performance tonight. Plain and simple. Some of the freshmen were good as was Carefoot but the rest of the veterans mailed it in. One of the more humiliating losses in recent Cornell history.

Dpperk29

from an unbiased perspective, the officiating was pretty good. Maybe alittle one sided against wayne state, but Murphy called a pretty good game. The penatly shot, the penalty to scrivens, and sawada's cross-check were all really good calls which the Faithful didn;t like, but I had a perfect view of all of them, and they were good calls.

...

Those things happen. Murphy was on the other side of the goalie, and probably thought the goalie had it. He was probably trying to protect the goalie from the hacks that always follow. He owned up to it, it happens to everyone.

Let's all defer to the "unbiased" opinion of the guy who comes on elynah and whines after every Clarkson loss about how awful the officiating was. Where were you sitting when you had such a perfect view of ALL of the calls you mentioned? Did you switch seats a few times?

Sawada's dive was deffinatly a dive, good call there. I really can't think of a cornell penalty which wasn't warranted.

Can you substanaiate this claim? How do you "deffinatly" know it was a dive?

calgARI '07
Pathetic performance tonight. Plain and simple. Some of the freshmen were good as was Carefoot but the rest of the veterans mailed it in. One of the more humiliating losses in recent Cornell history.

That pretty much sums it up. The officiating wasn't the difference; the team mailing it in for the vast majority of the game was. Kudos to Wayne State. I'd like to see Scali tomorrow.

ebilmes
Wayne State should be thankful this Thanksgiving break that Cornell has handed them what will likely be the highlight of their season: a win at Lynah.

I don't think you're giving Wayne State enough credit. They fought us hard and earned a great victory on the road.

For Topher's contact to the head after the play near the end, I saw two of their guys pinning him to the back of the goal and going at his head, while the play was still going. The scrum after was nothing compared to the beating he took that the refs didnt call.

Horrible game.

I'll just point out the positives first. Greening getting two goals is awesome and he stepped up when everyone else wasn't. Gallagher had a very good game. McCutcheon was all over the ice working but couldn't find the back of the net. Scrivens played great; I think he is much better than Davenport. He had some very good saves and kept us in the game with his save on the penalty shot. I do not know why he was called for roughing since he just checked the guy but oh well. As to why he left the crease I have no clue but that was the second breakaway in less than 5 mins, I think he was attempting to not get another penalty shot at him. The 5th WSU goal occured after Scrivens made a save and Nash let the rebound go of his stick, so more the D's fault than his. As to Davenport, well he was just awful; I am certainly not a fan of his but today he really did it, 2 saves on 5 shots. All 3 of our losses have been due to Davenport screwing up on the 1st period. Against Dartmouth he allowed 2 goals on 7 shots and against Q he allowed 2 on 10, those are very low save % in the first period and have created holes we can't climd out of. The defense has been slacking and on this game in particular was just terrible. After trailing 3-0 it was a nearly impossible game for a Cornell team to win but we did our best and came very close. Also, three of the Wayne State goals were 5x3!!!!! That is just plain stupid, we were taking way too many penalties and most of them stupid ones. The ones that were questionable ones most ended up on 4x4 situations so I don't think they changed the outcome that much. Wayne State scored 4/8 power plays and that is just awful penalty kill. It was a really disappointing game to say the least, and not to discredit Wayne State because they showed they wanted to win and took advantage of all their opportunities, but we were supposed to win no problem. This loss is going to hurt a lot come NCAA selection time.

Let's just hope the guys step up tomorrow and Mike comes up with new PP and PK strategies because the current ones aren't cutting it.

Alright, Let's Go Red and avenge this loss tomorrow. LGR!!

I think Scrivens made the right choice to come out of the net for that puck, because if he hadn't it'd have been a pure breakaway, and likely as not a Wayne State goal. But I'd also like to know why he was called for roughing when it looked like a clean check to me - and last I knew, in front of the faceoff dots, he can hit and get hit just like any other player. So what's the deal? Did anybody see him punch the guy or something?

I thought it was a clean check too, maybe its so odd the refs didn't really know what to do? Either way Murphy sucks!

BTW I got the Ken Dryden autograph!

Wasnt very close but it looked like he got both his gloves high on the hit. Still surprised it got called all the same.

I have not seen our team successfully kill off one single 5x3 situation yet this year. Everytime a 5x3 comes up against us, I would put my money down and bet against our team every time. Our PK just can't do it.

Ok, done with my rant of the day.

Oat
I have not seen our team successfully kill off one single 5x3 situation yet this year. Everytime a 5x3 comes up against us, I would put my money down and bet against our team every time. Our PK just can't do it.

I don't know how fair that is. If I had to bet on every 5x3 over a minute, I'd probably bet on the offense (given teams of roughly even capability) I'd bet on the offense every time.

Currently ranked 55th out of 59 in D1 in penalty killing... yeah, I'd say that's a problem... For a Schafer coached team that's routinely in the top 10 in the nation, 55th is an embarrassment.

Omie
All 3 of our losses have been due to Davenport screwing up on the 1st period. Against Dartmouth he allowed 2 goals on 7 shots and against Q he allowed 2 on 10, those are very low save % in the first period and have created holes we can't climd out of.[/Q] [Q]The defense has been slacking and on this game in particular was just terrible.

Well I can agree with the second statement, but not the first. Last night two of those three goals were PP, one a 5 on 3. Also one of the goals went off a post or crossbar. Against Q, one even and one PP goal, and D 2 PP goals, one of which went off one of our players. Sure, he could have saved some of them, but to blame him for us losing, come on.

redhair34
That pretty much sums it up. The officiating wasn't the difference; the team mailing it in for the vast majority of the game was. Kudos to Wayne State. I'd like to see Scali tomorrow.

Schafer does not suffer these performances gladly. I have a feeling that we may see anybody who is capable of cracking the lineup today. Scali. Kindret. Fontas. Maybe we'll even have a Connors sighting.

We're starting to look very inconsistent from game to game. We're young. Schafer said that we no longer can use that as an excuse. Well, excuse or no excuse, it's still a valid reason.

We need to work on the powerplay and the kill. That's pretty much it. And Davenport has a tendency to give up goals early, though he's been very solid in games I've seen (home games that aren't Wayne State).

Oat
I have not seen our team successfully kill off one single 5x3 situation yet this year. Everytime a 5x3 comes up against us, I would put my money down and bet against our team every time. Our PK just can't do it.

Ok, done with my rant of the day.

Well, if it's any consolation we did kill off a 5 x 3 against Harvard.

redhair34

Dpperk29

from an unbiased perspective, the officiating was pretty good. Maybe alittle one sided against wayne state, but Murphy called a pretty good game. The penatly shot, the penalty to scrivens, and sawada's cross-check were all really good calls which the Faithful didn;t like, but I had a perfect view of all of them, and they were good calls.

...

Those things happen. Murphy was on the other side of the goalie, and probably thought the goalie had it. He was probably trying to protect the goalie from the hacks that always follow. He owned up to it, it happens to everyone.

Let's all defer to the "unbiased" opinion of the guy who comes on elynah and whines after every Clarkson loss about how awful the officiating was. Where were you sitting when you had such a perfect view of ALL of the calls you mentioned? Did you switch seats a few times?

Sawada's dive was deffinatly a dive, good call there. I really can't think of a cornell penalty which wasn't warranted.

Can you substanaiate this claim? How do you "deffinatly" know it was a dive?

I like to think there is a fine line between bitching and whining, but call it what you will. I wasn;t expecting you to all defer to my opinion, but is it fair to say you all have a biased view of how the game turns out? I was unbiased because I honestly didn;t care who won, yes cornell tanking against wayne state is going to hurt the entire ECAC when it comes NCAA time, but i'll get over it. so I guess in that sense, I was slightly pulling for cornell

I was seated in section M the whole game, and all three of those calls I mentioned, were ones where my first reaction was "Cornell's going to get one for that". As a ref, if I was reffing the game, and had seen those incidents from that perspective, all of them would have been penalties.

I wouldn't blame him completely because the PK is just being awful. However with that said, a good goalie can make the saves that are needed during the PK too. I was at the Q game and we scored early but the moment Q had their 1st or 2nd shot it went in. What I am pointing out is that Davenport has had bad performances in all three 1st periods of all three of our losses, against Q he was eh, against D he was eek, and last night he was just awful. The defense has gone from okay to bad, instead of improving they have been doing the opposite. Two straight losses with one of them against Wayne State at home leaves a lot to be desired. I think another problem is our team's leadership; Scott is doing a great job but Bitz is not a tangible factor most of the time while Glover is out 'til Jan. We haven't had a good, dependable captain since Knoepfli.

We have a more distributed offense this year and very good freshman but the upperclassmen need to step up and Mike must figure out how to improve the D, PK, and PP. Even his own statements show he is not happy.

6-3 is a good stretch for this team with so many intangibles but look at the losses and you will notice that the team that played those games is not the same one that started winning early in the season. Besides the ridiculously weak Non-conf schedule was intended because our team would be so young. I don't think being young is an excuse anymore not 1/3 of the way through the season.

If you were in M you could hardly see the Scrivens incident. How does Scrivens cleanly checking the guy amount to roughing? I had a perfect view of it from D (direct line of sight) and it was just a very very bad call. Sawada's diving penalty occured on the opposite side of the ice from M so again you couldn't really see it that well it occured right in front me and I'll go with claiming it was a questionable call I won't categorically say bad but definitely questionable.

Omie
If you were in M you could hardly see the Scrivens incident. How does Scrivens cleanly checking the guy amount to roughing? I had a perfect view of it from D (direct line of sight) and it was just a very very bad call. Sawada's diving penalty occured on the opposite side of the ice from M so again you couldn't really see it that well it occured right in front me and I'll go with claiming it was a questionable call I won't categorically say bad but definitely questionable.

I will respectfully disagree with you and say that I could see the Scrivens incident very clearly. I could clearly see the wayne state player go in aggressivly and play the puck. Scrivens chose to bring both his hands up and throw the player away. Goalies outside their priviledged area cannot do that. Goalies cannot play the body outside their priviledged area.

Dpperk29
Goalies cannot play the body outside their priviledged area.

I'm not going to argue about what we each think we saw Scrivens do, but I will disagree about this.

From the 2006 Ice Hockey NCAA Rules and Interpretations, p. 41
[www.ncaa.org]

Goalkeeper’s Penalties
SECTION 7.


d. Within the rectangular area bounded in the rear by the player’s end of
the rink, in front by an imaginary line connecting the special spots and
on the sides by imaginary lines from the special spots to the end boards,
the goalkeeper has certain privileges (see rink diagram). When outside
of this area, however, the goalkeeper must play the puck in the same
manner as that prescribed for other players and is subject to the same
penalties (see 6-19-b-2 and 6-40-c). The goalkeeper shall not body check
an opponent in the privileged area.

Bold and italics added by me.

What I meant by Cornell not playing awful was that they were limiting 5 on 5 chances for Wayne State, while getting chances to score 5 on 5 themselves. Powerplay looked better than it has in recent games as well.

The difference was penalty killing. I can't fault the goalies on any of them either. They are more often than not making the inital save. When that happens you need to rely on the defense to help you clear the puck away from the net. Cornell isn't doing that right now, they are getting caught running around the zone. So when one of the goalies has made a save there is no one left to clear the puck away and the opponents have been putting these rebounds in. That is when they aren't leaving the cross-crease, slam-dunk goal option wide open.

I don't think anyone really expected this team to be top 10 in PK this year, but 55th is not going to cut it.

Have we seen the team trotting off to Friedman in their warmups for some post-game conditioning? Maybe it's time to bring that back...

It's too bad that there is no USCHO recap for the game. I'd really like to read the post game comments.

reilly83

Dpperk29
Goalies cannot play the body outside their priviledged area.

I'm not going to argue about what we each think we saw Scrivens do, but I will disagree about this.

From the 2006 Ice Hockey NCAA Rules and Interpretations, p. 41
[www.ncaa.org]

Goalkeeper’s Penalties
SECTION 7.


d. Within the rectangular area bounded in the rear by the player’s end of
the rink, in front by an imaginary line connecting the special spots and
on the sides by imaginary lines from the special spots to the end boards,
the goalkeeper has certain privileges (see rink diagram). When outside
of this area, however, the goalkeeper must play the puck in the same
manner as that prescribed for other players and is subject to the same
penalties (see 6-19-b-2 and 6-40-c). The goalkeeper shall not body check
an opponent in the privileged area.

That is also how I remembered the rule, and what I was saying about it last night. Once he came out beyond the face-off dots, he was entitled to do anything any other player is entitled to do, as long as he didn't try playing the puck with his hands. So it would have had to be an actual roughing infraction, not just playing the body - and I didn't see an actual roughing infraction.
Bold and italics added by me.

well, I guess that's what I get for trying to remember 3 rule books. either way, scrivens hands came up, which is an illegal body check...

ebilmes
What an ugly, terrible game. I don't see how you can spin this in any positive light. ... Lynah crowd was weak, but that's expected over break. ....

Weekend's quoted attendance was
Saturday 4267 [cornellbigred.cstv.com]
Sunday 4051 [cornellbigred.cstv.com]

billhoward

ebilmes
What an ugly, terrible game. I don't see how you can spin this in any positive light. ... Lynah crowd was weak, but that's expected over break. ....

Weekend's quoted attendance was
Saturday 4267 [cornellbigred.cstv.com]
Sunday 4051 [cornellbigred.cstv.com]

quoting attendance as tickets sold is stupid.

Quoting attendance as tickets sold does continue the string of sold-out or nearly sold-out Lynah Rink games even if it means fewer pretzels and T-shirts sold between periods.

That's one more reason why it would be good to have more than the Cornell Big Red Sports Ministry of Information reporting on the game.

Did Cornell run any "plenty of general attendance tickets available" messaging, especially for Saturday's game? It's always a chance for Ithacans to go see Cornell.

Jacob '06
quoting attendance as tickets sold is stupid.

Agreed. Seemed like a lot of students knew they weren't going to be at the games but didn't end up giving their tickets to anyone.

The numbers did pick up on the dropoff in attendance from Saturday to Sunday.

billhoward
Quoting attendance as tickets sold does continue the string of sold-out or nearly sold-out Lynah Rink games even if it means fewer pretzels and T-shirts sold between periods.

That's one more reason why it would be good to have more than the Cornell Big Red Sports Ministry of Information reporting on the game.

Did Cornell run any "plenty of general attendance tickets available" messaging, especially for Saturday's game? It's always a chance for Ithacans to go see Cornell.

I happen to like the official Cornell account of the game. It's usually a pretty accurate account of the game without any editorializing. If I can't be at a game, I'd rather make my own judgements about it instead of someone else's.