What The Hell Do I Do? Injustice Maybe?

I was ejected from the game, escorted out by a cop, JA'd, and had my season tickets invalidated. Why? I said the word asshole. I'll explain the story amidst my uncontrollable anger and confusion.

The 90 year old usher between A and B was standing in row 1 in the A/B aisle. A rowdy fan in front of me went into an attack on the opposite sieve that he was "bent over like his father did for his grandfather, and like he does for his father" or something of that nature. Basically, the Faithful member used some pretty heavy and crude sexual references. Old usher dude (hereby referred to as Dick) went over and chastised the fan for language. He walked back over to the aisle.

Six or seven minutes later, I participated, along with about 1500 other fans, in the "See you asshole, you goon" bit. The usher walked up three rows, then went all the way from the aisle and came up to me and told me to follow him. After repeatedly asking him "What did I do, what did I say", he continued to refuse me the right to know what my crime was on the basis that it was too offensive. Finally, in the athletic office, he admitted I said "asshole". This guy Dennis came in, mentioned something about a zero tolerance policy being enacted yesterday, and how I'll lose my season tickets and I'll be JA'd.



I'm absolutely hysterically angry. The usher said he saw me cup my mouth and point at the penalty box and yell that. Yet if he was on my left, and I cupped my mouth, he couldn't have seen what I mouthed. What do I do? What the hell do I do when the athletic department makes such an unfair example out of me?

Any suggestions, ideas, thoughts?

If you've really got the time and they actually send you to the JA, request a hearing in front of the Campus Hearing Board. At that point you can request documentation of the 'policy', although Athletics does have the right to revoke your license to see the game. You can also demand that the usher show up and prove to the board exactly what he heard amongst the 3,000 people and of course the exact time and place it happened. I don't think there is much in the Campus Code that prohibits such behavior, maybe disorderly conduct. The JA will most likely seek to settle the case with some sort of summary agreement. The Hearing Board can't impose a penalty higher than what the JA requests so, if its worth your time you can fight the JA part of it. In the future, if anything should happen, you should request the names of the people who kicked you out and act as nicely as possible to the pricks. If all else fails, claim your due process was violated and never give a dime to CU Athletics.

Geez, and I thought the Lynah staff was only that mean to VISITING fans...

Hope you can get your season tickets back, that really sounds crappy.

It has been a while since I have heard George Carlin do his 7 dirty word routine, but as memory serves, ASSHOLE is not among the seven. FCC regulates on air communications and does not forbid the word. Seems like you have a Free Speech argument.

Chris

Unfortunately, there isn't such a thing as 'free speech' on private property.

I find it ironic that our left leaning university would define "profane" language more stringently than the right leaning FCC. Also, what is "profane" to a 90 year old usher may not be to a 20 year old student. How can you hold someone accountable to a standard that lacks specificity?

As far as Free Speech, sure it is private property but look at the history of the University. Not much in the way of past censorship.

Chris

How do they invalidate your tickets? Is every octogenerian security person at the game supposed to memorize your seat number?

Last year at the Colgate game the atheltics officials let some inbred moron from Colgate walk around the lobby with a novelty foam finger that said "big red ass" AND he was yelling it as he walked--not a single athletics official a) attempted to kick him out of the game and b) said anything to him, not even a warning.


They seem particularly eager this year to kick people out of the student section...I never remember them being so proactive with enforcing the policy.

Can you switch tickets with someone from another section?

It's not a civil liberties issue.

Or to put it another way, here's a simple test. Would you be willing to burn your ticket in protest over the student's loss of his ticket? If it's a civil liberties issue, you ought to be.

The university can throw you out and cancel your ticket if you look at them sideways. About the only reason they can't is if they stated, in print, that they were doing it because you were in a protected category like race, gender, ethnicity, disability. (Not orientation, though, since apparently we're still a little too Dark Ages for that.) So, on the face of it, you really don't have a case unless you can prove to their satisfaction that you didn't do what you are accused of doing, or that the punishment is excessive.

Enforcement has been very uneven. It seems like if you spew f-bombs, you will get a lecture, but if you particpate in a group "asshole" they may randomly select you as an example.

[Q]Drew Wrote:

Can you switch tickets with someone from another section?[/q]
Good idea. Switch tickets with someone in E or something and enter through the other door.

[Q]jtwcornell91 Wrote:

Enforcement has been very uneven. It seems like if you spew f-bombs, you will get a lecture, but if you particpate in a group "asshole" they may randomly select you as an example.[/q]
which is all the more reason not to get caught. the whole enforcement policy started in earnest when i was on the hill l and every single person in the student sections knew not to let the ushers see you say the word asshole. it was pretty simple really. look down, cover your mouth, hide behind a friend, just don't let them see you say it. i use to talk with the ushers in my section and know for a fact they played by these rules too. they would tell me how they were "supposed" to keep an eye out for swearing but only had to enforce it with people who were not very discrete in doing so. don't get me wrong, i feel for those who've been picked out of the crowd for swearing and had to endure the process that ensued, but you can't stand there and tell me they didn't know better.

btw ctenah, you never mentioned if you actually said the word asshole? is this your first year as a student season ticket holder? not there's anything wrong with this, maybe you could use it to your advantage and play the ignorance card if/when you get to your JA ... just a thought. hope you get your ticket back.

Ctenah... you still have your tickets I assume... so just enter at another entrance, and paint your face or wear a hat or something... wear a red mask and make yourself "red man", whatever. I've seen people get booted and then come back in 5 min later... the ushers' memories aren't what they were back in the roaring 20's.

As for the JA, tell them the truth- you actually said "flagpole" , make them prove otherwise (which they obviously can't considering the 1500 or so other voices... even bring a recording from the next game of that cheer just to give an idea of the volume), tell them that while the intention is to make it "sound" like profanity en masse, it is in fact completely harmless rhetoric.

And if any athletics dept. people read this forum... honestly... disappointing

I'm betting the athletics dept. does read this forum, and I have to agree that this is very disappointing.

I can understand kicking someone out of one game for coming in drunk and ruining everyone else's enjoyment of the game; making an example of one person in the crowd for a chant everyone is doing is just wrong.

The cheers won't change. Making a fan's life miserable is not worth it, especially when I barely know what's going on 3 seats away from me most of the time.

-Alex Barash '07

I don't even remember anymore. I definitely said goon. Though, as I've mentioned, I cupped my mouth with my left hand and faced the right and pointed. The usher was on my left. So the whole "covering your mouth thing" doesn't seem to work then. I'm just amazed that this guy would pick me out of the entire crowd to set an example.

And yes, I am a freshman season ticket holder. The Dennis guy did mention something about how I had been warned 6 times, including on the back of my ticket and from the email and such. *shrug*

I guess here's my chance to fight The Man.

[Q]ctenah Wrote:

I don't even remember anymore.[/q]

If you do remember and you said that evil, evil word they don't allow in G Rated movies DON'T incriminate yourself on this forum...I wouldn't be suprised if athletics is watching . Let's hope you're the only one who got tossed. If that's the case it would be pretty easy to identify you. Even if they can't trace it to you, they'd be more inclined to be tough on you.

Almost the exact same thing happened to me last night. An usher that remembered me from last year tried to throw me out again for the asshole chant. He also mentioned this zero tolerance policy.

Somehow I talked my way out of it (I guess I knew the right things to say after last year), but it wasn't pretty, and I was most pissed off that I missed our one and only goal. I guess the only advice I have would be to tell Gene the truth and tell him that you have learned your lesson and have passed it on to others too.

As far as the JA thing, I wouldn't really worry about it even if you do end up getting JAed. I am an RA so I have plenty of experiance with the JA system, this first time will be nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

The ushers were also pretty hardcore about not allowing any standing on the concrete in front of the glass in A and B for the first time I can remember. I don't know if it was like that in D,E, and F, but it sure was in A and B. The woman usher in A told us is was enacted as of Friday night, for an incident that happen in the Union game. We found out later that it may have had something to do with the fan in B getting hit by the puck. Later in the game Saturday that same old usher then walked down the first row of A asking to see everyone's ticket to verify their seats. This was even though everyone was standing comfortably on the bench. After booting a few friends a few rows back in A, we discussed this policy with him. He basically said his hands were tied and he was being forced to do it, but "if we could fit them on the bench" then he didn't care.

All in all, it sounds like the Lynah staff were asked to bump up the police patrol in the student section

[Q]Ben Rocky 04 Wrote:

Unfortunately, there isn't such a thing as 'free speech' on private property.[/q]

actually, isnt land grant institution land technically publicly owned? i am not sure...
i think the whole thing is just silly but we wont get into the whole profanity/language debate.
i would say that the best thing to do would be
a) tell the truth
b) if you said it say that those around you had said it 21 times before this season (or however many powerplays we have had at home) and nothing had happened to them. how can they enforce a zero tolerance policy without warning those being policed about this zero tolerance policy - if the whole point of this zero tolerance policy is to get people to stop saying asshole then wouldnt warning the students about this new policy partially take care of the problem by scaring people into not saying asshole?
this argument can hold even if u didnt say it
c) i say bunghole usually. how can they tell asshole from bunghole in a mass of people? i say a lot of things at hockey games, as some of you know, but even when I was still on the hill i stopped saying "fuck em up fuck em up" and "asshole" b/c the athletics department asked me to. respect should be given when it is expected to be received.
d) good luck with this, i would suggest you just swap tickets with someone from another section...
e) with the JA just state that even if u didnt say asshole, u learned your lesson and will avoid this type of language for the future.

What does standing on the concrete have to do with getting hit in the head with a puck?

After a losing a battle, didn't the French shoot every tenth soldier "pour encouragez les autres"? Cornell may be trying this here.

Suggestions for a person trying to contest the charge:

If you want to be contentious (is this what you really want?): You might get Cornell to clarify what exactly are forbidden words. You could ask them to provide the list and any logic behind it. Cornell may use the the Animal House logic about the words being too gross and disgusting to cite in public. Find out if the roots are also forbidden. Is "horse's ass" not unacceptable? At some point, you might burn up so much time it's not worth pursuing the case - maybe. What are the JA rules about whether you have a right to confront your accusers? Can you subpoena Andy Noel and Gene Nighman and the head usher and the usher who escorted you? If they don’t have to show, you can point out that there’s a lack of clarity behind the policy and Cornell was unable to provide that clarity, suggesting Cornell isn't taking this seriously enough when it had a wonderful opportunity to provide insight for all students through this hearing.

It's been a while since I've been on campus, but are JA procedures closed? Do you get to call in the other side? You might ask that it be open. Invite the Sun and the Journal. Maybe USCHO would like to do a feature on it. Make the Cornell judicial system prove it. Remember to use words such as apparently, alleged, purported, supposed, situation, alleged incident. If you do get to call the other guys: What is the witness' skill as a lip-reader? What is his/her vision - is that with or without eyeglasses and were they worn that night? How good is his or her hearing? How old is he? Was he/she a student here? When was that? Were the defendant's hands cupped around his/her lips making it hard to see the lips? Out of a list of 10 commonly used words you silently speak, how many can the witness make out?

Don't ask questions where you don't know the answer, such as, "What led you [usher] to focus in on me?" Maybe he'll say he saw the defendant mouthing obscenities three times before. If a person with your name or e-mail address appears to have made an admission online, let them prove it was you and not a person who hijacked your email address. Let them subpoena eLynah records and let eLynah ignore them since this is not a court of law.

You might tread modeslty down the “why single out me?” path, indirectly. Ask for the usher’s, or head usher’s, or Andy Noel’s count of how often there are allegedly objectionable phrases uttered. Ask how many persons have been ejected. Ask how many persons then have gone unscathed. You want to leave the impression of “highly selective enforcement.” Ask if the usher received any instructions before this past weekend that differed from what they'd been told to do in previoius games. Cops are allowed to pick out every tenth speeder, but if it’s every hundredth speeder then it’s becoming highly selective. Although when you applied, you were told Cornell is a highly selective university. <g>

Since this is an informal hearing outside the public judicial system, the university may opt not to play by the rules codified by the founding fathers. Hearsay and innuendo may be fine as far as the university is concerned.

It wouldn't hurt to get some legal training, like talking to someone in ILR or watching My Cousin Vinnie and also the trial scene in Animal House. If you can get Marisa Tomei to attend the hearing, good for you.

Maybe you don’t want to be contentious:

Overall, you may have to decide if you want to prove a point … or retain your tickets. (Remember the old Billy Joel line about "the angry young man with his fist in the air and his head in the sand". Since this is an informal hearing, it wouldn't hurt to express remorse if there was the appearance of the situation that led the usher to believe the alleged situation. And if the hearing has a negative outcome, further remorse might get your tickets back.

Lastly, consider the possibility that Cornell is in the right here. Maybe Cornell wants to encourage good-natured sportsmanship and cheering and Cornell is within its rights to shape crowd behavior. In other words, whether or not you’re getting screwed, maybe it is for the common good and maybe Cornell is right on this one. Maybe. If so, remorse gives them and you an out if you want to get back in.

Remember: It's Just A Game. The fans shouldn't take it more seriously than the players. I'm an older alum now and I hope you get to see the rest of the season, but for the couple games I come back for and the ones I see on the road, I really enjoy seeing good-natured, not mean-spirited, rivalries. I like the cowbell and the Pep Band and fans yelling "you-you-you" at a penalized opponent. I like when the fans yell "Red!" during the anthem and I also understand how older fans, especially if they served and especially if they got shot at, might bristle at that. We all have to embrace diversity.

Also, until the Big Red catches fire, you haven’t missed a lot.

Quantum tunneling with a puck. I mean, it could happen...

That's what we said. They told us it was because it took a while for EMS to get to the girl in B. If she was in the middle of the section anyway, then it would be just as difficult to get to her there. At least it is a better reason than what they've come up with for not swearing during Gary Glitter and "See ya."

I got kicked out a couple years ago (as did my friend) for the same thing. The usher decided it was ok to grab my arm and "escort" me out. He took me to some guy who asked for my student ID where he took down my name and confiscated my ticket for that game. He said if it happened again they would take my season tickets. Of course this wouldnt be possible since I was not on the record as ever purchasing tickets (my friend bought them, and I paid him for them). It happened a lot two years ago during the 2003-2004 season, I saw a bunch of people in B get kicked out. Whenever we do the cheers now, I look around before I yell anything.

But really...how would he know if you yelled "ASSHOLE" or 'A-HOLE"? I doubt any of them are trained lip readers. Even so, just by lip movements, you cant really tell what someone is saying without context. "I LOVE YOU" and "I LOVE JUICE" have the same lip/mouth movements.

BOAT-SHIP

BOAT-SHIP

Unfortunately, there's really nothing to do at this point. The only positive thing to take from this is that it's nothing new: [www.cornellsun.com]

From what I heard from people at the game, the ushers were even claiming that "sucks" is a bad word. Maybe istead of "RPI sucks" we'll just have to yell "RPI is not playing to their full potential but that's not their fault since the playing field isn't level but that's OK since there's lots of room for improvement, better luck next time." Maybe that will calm the overly agressive fan enforcement policy initiated all because some assholes threw bottles on the ice. Oops, I said assholes, does this mean my elynah posting ability will be taken away?

[Q]ctenah Wrote:

I was ejected from the game, escorted out by a cop, JA'd, and had my season tickets invalidated. Why? I said the word asshole. I'll explain the story amidst my uncontrollable anger and confusion.

The 90 year old usher between A and B was standing in row 1 in the A/B aisle. A rowdy fan in front of me went into an attack on the opposite sieve that he was "bent over like his father did for his grandfather, and like he does for his father" or something of that nature. Basically, the Faithful member used some pretty heavy and crude sexual references. Old usher dude (hereby referred to as Dick) went over and chastised the fan for language. He walked back over to the aisle.

Six or seven minutes later, I participated, along with about 1500 other fans, in the "See you asshole, you goon" bit. The usher walked up three rows, then went all the way from the aisle and came up to me and told me to follow him. After repeatedly asking him "What did I do, what did I say", he continued to refuse me the right to know what my crime was on the basis that it was too offensive. Finally, in the athletic office, he admitted I said "asshole". This guy Dennis came in, mentioned something about a zero tolerance policy being enacted yesterday, and how I'll lose my season tickets and I'll be JA'd.



I'm absolutely hysterically angry. The usher said he saw me cup my mouth and point at the penalty box and yell that. Yet if he was on my left, and I cupped my mouth, he couldn't have seen what I mouthed. What do I do? What the hell do I do when the athletic department makes such an unfair example out of me?

Any suggestions, ideas, thoughts? [/q]



Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, see ya asshole ...

From what I heard last night. Bullshit is ok. If we said Asshole or Fuck we were out.

She was in the middle of the section, but EMS didn't even try to get to her in B. And usher and friend escorted her up to the office where the EMS were able to attend to her.....strange they made a rule out of it...

establishing a clear path along the glass is by no stretch a new idea. in fact, most any building constructed in the last 20+ years (maybe longer didn’t look it up) it is mandated by code. Lynah is grandfathered into the existing code from when it was built in the late 50’s. it appears they're trying to make things as safe as possible by having a clear path along the glass to access any possible emergencies that may arise. probably for the best.

this thing happens all the time.

i was ejected from a game in 03-04 for saying "fuck em up, go cu" but i was allowed back in the next game. i wrote an angry letter to athletics claiming that i was being made an example of-- given where the usher was, there was absolutely no way he could have seen me or heard me. i was an exceptionally loud fan and i felt that booting me sent an example to the students.

a guy i knew was ejected for "what's the color of shit? brown." the usher claimed to see his lips moving, but he was wearing a jason goalie mask.

then there's the whole nick linder thing. kid didn't even say the right cheer (lose).

it seems like they are more strict on this kinda thing now.

my first trip back to lynah since graduating, i was thrown out because the usher claimed i threw a fish. mind you i was in section O and there's a huge stuffed reindeer on the ice in front of me. the thing is, the ushers throw you to the police then the police blame the ushers (there's nothing i can do...). it absolves both parties from any responsibility, and there is no such thing as an appeal. the trick is, once they get you physically outside the rink, you are done. oh, and if you refuse to leave the rink, they threaten you with arrest for disobeying an officer. it turned out that i was able to find gene and indicate (with receipt and all) that i had in fact purchased a stuffed animal which was sitting evidently on the ice. needless to say, the usher and cop were none too happy to see me back.

as several others have said, i doubt they took your tickets. they may have written your seat down, but there is no way of showing that the individual in your seat is you or a friend of yours (is your seat invalid, or just you personally?). at this rate, if the seat becomes invalid, we're gonna start having an attendance problem...

and i can also guarantee that some individuals associated with athletics and cupd and other admin. depts in the university skim this board. those that do it aren't necessarily the mean-spirited ones of course.

-mike '04

[Q]oceanst41 Wrote:

Later in the game Saturday that same old usher then walked down the first row of A asking to see everyone's ticket to verify their seats. This was even though everyone was standing comfortably on the bench. After booting a few friends a few rows back in A, we discussed this policy with him. He basically said his hands were tied and he was being forced to do it, but "if we could fit them on the bench" then he didn't care. [/q]
Because (I was told) a girl showed up mid-game and found people in her seat (how shocking....) and so she went to complain to the usher, who then was forced to do something.

Probably for the best, but it is weird that they enacted it last night for the first time. And they told us as much when they were doing it. They definitely eluded to the face that it was because of the puck hitting the girl in B, EMS never tried to pass in front of A then either.

It wasn't until the puck went into Section A, and then bounced of a friend's hand back onto the ice, that EMS walked over to see if everyone was alright.

I did hear that there were a few fans who showed up in the third to find their seats crowded. They were mad that they couldn't sit down because people were standing too close.

I suppose this is a side effect of making the ticket process a sprint rather than a marathon: you end up with "fans" who see no problem with showing up to the student section in the middle of the game and demanding a particular piece of bench.

Of course if you really wanted to get under the athletic dept. skin you could start sitting in the townie section along with everyone else that gets kicked out. Eventually they would realize that by having the students swearing on one side isn't so bad because they are away from the elders and youngsters who I'm sure donate a lot of money to athletics. Your goal would be to create havoc elsewhere to make them realize it wasn't so bad the way it was before!

You should also be respectful of the fact that there is a large section of adult, longtime, fans who for the ridiculously selfish reason of raising children, such as the students were only a couple years ago, or in many cases, still, object to profanity in their section. Planting yourself in the townie section and releasing a few F-bombs may seem like vintage 1848 popular rebellion if you're a sophomore with delusions of social relevance... but to the rest of us, it just means you're an idiot.

It's pretty simple. If you see ushers lurking, try to restrain yourself. But if you chant "Laing sucks!" at the top of your lungs, expect appropriate retaliation (like Mrs. Kennedy beating you repeatedly with her umbrella.. absolutely the best feedback I've ever received, er, I mean, just theoretically.)

[Q]Jason L Wrote:
"I LOVE YOU" and "I LOVE JUICE" have the same lip/mouth movements. [/q]

likewise with "vacuum" and "fuck you"

A lot of people have made a lot of good points here, and I agree with the vast majority of them...for one, i agree that ctenah getting kicked out is unfair...unfortunately, it's true that they DO announce at the begining of games and write on the back of the ticket that it can be revoked.

if they're going to kick someone out for swearing...at least do it when the person says "fuck 'em up," at least there's a valid argument for that...

and on a side note, ctenah--i commend you for being a freshman AND knowing the cheers

If we really want to be careful, we should replace 'goon' -- it's a pretty bad word -- with something else. I suggest 'lose'.

Thank you for the support, everyone. I pride myself in being one of the few freshmen who surf eLynah, know the cheers, and make a habit of going to every game. You might notice I started the "Kill, Red, Kill" cheer the first two or three times at the RPI game...Cornell Hockey is absolutely amazing.

Anyway, yeah. It sucks. I think I might write a letter to Gene or something of that sort. I will tell the truth, just as I told the truth to the usher, but I am most upset about the fact that the team I love and support is being taken from me. I'm not sure how they take away one's season tickets, though. But what upsets me even more than ANYTHING, is the fact that a fan was verbally cautioned for substantialy crude, solitary sexually explicit cursing at the opposite goalie, when...well, the same usher wouldn't even tell me what I had said to offend him, and kicked me out of the game. That's injustice. If I had been warned, if even that fan had been kicked out as well, then there'd be justice.

But to kick someone out for saying asshole along with 2000 other fans, yet simply yell at a crude fan for saying the goalie's grandfather fucked his dad is....well, horrible.

Thanks to everyone for their support in this matter. If any members of the athletic department are reading this, as I'm sure they are, then I ask them to be fairer in the future. Making examples of the most die-hard fans, including others unnamed here, simply for the sake of making an example is further deleterious to the positive crowd support of the team.



And by the way, the girl who was hit with the puck stands immediately to my left. EMS never came. The fans cleared and escorted her out of the aisle promptly.

Good luck getting your tickets back.

Incidentally, since everyone brought this up: I sit in A. Those guys who got sent to the top of the section don't normally sit there and they made the bench ridiculously crowded.

My friends and I who normally sit in row 5 of A were quite crowded ourselves- I was kind of glad that those people were sent back up. After all, it is unfair to make season-ticket holders who get there on time and sit in the same place every game squeeze into another place. (Not that I would ask the ushers to do anything for me... bunch of unpleasant, disgruntled employees.)

[Q]billhoward Wrote:
I like when the fans yell "Red!" during the anthem and I also understand how older fans, especially if they served and especially if they got shot at, might bristle at that.[/q]

Speaking of which, there were a few male students in Section B last night still wearing their ballcaps during the anthem. I would have bristled at that even if I hadn't been sitting in front of a WWII navy pilot. Not cool.

Beeeej

what about the Alma Mater? does anyone know that they are supposed to remove their hats for it?

i've never had a problem telling complete strangers that they are being disrespectful regardless of how much of an ass i may look like in the process. in fact a few seasons ago (‘02-‘03), some might remember nathan marsters not facing the flag during the anthems … i politely reminded him he was being disrespectful ... asshole

[Q]ctenah Wrote:
But to kick someone out for saying asshole along with 2000 other fans, yet simply yell at a crude fan for saying the goalie's grandfather fucked his dad is....well, horrible.

Thanks to everyone for their support in this matter. If any members of the athletic department are reading this, as I'm sure they are, then I ask them to be fairer in the future. Making examples of the most die-hard fans, including others unnamed here, simply for the sake of making an example is further deleterious to the positive crowd support of the team.[/q]

I fear that from there point of view, making the pointless example is more useful. If you throw out the one asshole accusing the other goalie's family of incest or threatening to "fucking kill" the ref's family, you get rid of one guy that most people think has gone to far. If you randomly throw out one fan out of 1000 who says "asshole", you make the other 999 think twice.

For my part, I think you shouldn't call a penalized opponent an asshole unless he really deserves it. I almost did to to Abdelkader when he got thrown out of the second MSU game, but there was an usher staring right at me, so I called the guy a punk instead.

[Q]
I fear that from there point of view, making the pointless example is more useful. If you throw out the one asshole accusing the other goalie's family of incest or threatening to "fucking kill" the ref's family, you get rid of one guy that most people think has gone to far. If you randomly throw out one fan out of 1000 who says "asshole", you make the other 999 think twice. [/q]
I think you're presuming too much logic on the part of the goons in charge of the gestapo.

FWIW, I'm very glad I was a student in the mid-late 90's instead of now, simply because I probably have the dubious distinction of not having been thrown out for screaming out possibly the most offensive anti-goalie screed ever shouted in Lynah. I don't think I would have gotten away with it over the past few years.

Kyle

Clearly this is an adhesion contract. If you really want to confuse the JA board, throw around terms like "unconscionability" at your hearing, and "unfair bargaining power." You could try to make a case that as a sports fan, Cornell has unfairly limited your rights due to its superior position to formulate the ticket-holder's contract. Of course, this argument isn't likely to hold water since I don't think its ever worked for any other sporting venue, or even been tried for that matter.

It is possible to say that the terms were not expressly (actually) listed on your ticket. Look to see if "swearing" or some other description of saying the word asshole is actually there. If it is not, then they have no right to remove you from the game for this. If the term is vague, such as disorderly conduct, bring a dictionary to your hearing and define the words. Try to show how your action, admist a crowd of 3k could not possible amount to disorderly conduct, especially when there were other actors in the arena doing the same or worse.

Additionally, ask for a copy of the pre-game announcement. If they didn't give you express notice of the zero-tolerance policy, it seems unfair and in "bad faith" that they would choose to enforce it. Common law supports the concept that contracts formed in bad faith cannot be enforced, i.e., they cannot legally take away your season tickets.

You should also check to see if the consequences of such vulgar language are expressly (again, actually) written on the back of the ticket. If it doesn't say that you could lose your tickets for an entire season, then CU athletics is introducing a new contract term. Modification of a written agreement often requires consideration (most often expressed through a bargained for exchange -- like the money you paid for tickets -- or a benefit/detriment -- like you giving up your first amendment right to swear in exchange for the right to see the game). Past consideration -- such as your previous payment for season tickets -- should not be able to count as consideration for modifciation of the contract.

They might counter the modifcation or expressly written arguments by referring you to the athletic's website or to the student handbook. Again, if your ticket does not tell you to see the student handbook or athletics website for further information, then they are not giving you express notice of the policies.

---

You could also claim that by not removing other students who were actually saying "asshole," Cornell had implied authorization of such a phrase. This especially holds true if your usher in question was around (visible to you) during these instances, yet did nothing. Additionally, if Cornell administrators were at the game, and saw this usher just standing there, and did nothing to reprimand him, then it would seem as though they ratified his actions as an agent of the University. It could be implied, therefore, that Cornell has ratified the use of the Word asshole in Lynah Rink.

(Admittedly this is a bit of a stretch of Contract law.)

---

From a procedural standpoint, find out if the JA board operates like a court of law. If so, then Cornell must prove, in a manner more reasonable than not (so more than 50-percent), that you actually said the word asshole. If the question can be disputed, such as if you can bring a friend - or even better yet an impartial person such as the guy who stands in front of you -- to say that "This guy always says crass-mole, not asshole" then you have created a controversy of fact. Procedurally, you should exploit this to say that it is equally plausible you have said the word asshole, and that you have not (since it is just one party's word against the other's). In this regard, Cornell University Athletics has not met its burden of production of proving you said the word asshole, and the matter does not deserve the time of the JA board, or any other judicial authority at Cornell.

If they acknowledge that they are introducing a new contract term, you could also reintroduce the unconscionability concept for this term. Cornell, with its superior and unquestioned bargaining power, has unfairly adhered you to this new contract term.

Additonally, you might be able to satisfy the legal elements of undue influence or duress. Of course, if you want legal advice that holds water you should Beej. He's further along in his legal career than I am.

Sincerely,
Matt Janiga
Cornell '05
UMN Law '08

P.S. If University Adminstrators are reading this, please know that I am also disapointed in you.

P.P.S. Professor Grossman, if you're reading this, and you agree with my legal analysis, could you see your way to possibly revising my Business Law grades?

Janiga,

Very entertaining.

Matt? You're at UMinn?? Speaking of being disappointed

- Fred

Janiga, studying for your contracts final? You 1Ls think you know everything.


***

[Q]ben03 Wrote:
in fact a few seasons ago (‘02-‘03), some might remember nathan marsters not facing the fag during the anthems[/q]

that's a damn funny typo.

and by the way, the discussion about respecting the anthem reminds me of the following exchange from Slap Shot:

[Referee skates over to Steve Hanson during the playing of the National Anthem]
Peterboro Referee: Got my eye on the three of you. You pull one thing, you're out of this game. I run a clean game here. I have any trouble here, I'll suspend ya.
Steve Hanson: I'm listening to the fucking song!

[Q]ben03 Wrote:

i've never had a problem telling complete strangers that they are being disrespectful regardless of how much of an ass i may look like in the process. in fact a few seasons ago (‘02-‘03), some might remember nathan marsters not facing the fag during the anthems … i politely reminded him he was being disrespectful ... asshole[/q]

try "flag"

[q]It is possible to say that the terms were not expressly (actually) listed on your ticket. Look to see if "swearing" or some other description of saying the word asshole is actually there...You should also check to see if the consequences of such vulgar language are expressly (again, actually) written on the back of the ticket.[/q]
do keep in mind that i agree ctenah getting kicked out is a load of crap... but the ticket says (in part):

TO THE HOLDER OF THIS TICKET
This ticket is a revocable license which may be withdrawn at any time for any reason. No alcoholic beverages, containers, coolers, controlled substances, weapons etc. will be allowed on the premises. Any person who engages in disorderly or disruptive conduct such as profanity and abusive or threatening language , or the throwing of objects, shall be subject to removal without refund.

(N.B. bold formatting is my addition, not on the ticket)
[q] Additionally, ask for a copy of the pre-game announcement. If they didn't give you express notice of the zero-tolerance policy, it seems unfair and in "bad faith" that they would choose to enforce it. [/q]
while I don't have a copy of that announcement, I am pretty sure they do say there is a zero-tolerance policy.

[Q]Annoying email message Wrote:

To: Men’s ice hockey student season ticket holders

From: Cornell Athletics

Subject: Important Lynah Rink reminders

New York State law and the Cornell Campus Code require you exit the rink in an orderly manner when an alarm sounds.
Please note the policy of zero tolerance for:

Throwing objects on the ice. If you are caught throwing anything, you will be ejected from the game, lose your season tickets and be responsible for Cornell’s team being penalized for delay of game.

Profane or threatening language, signs or gestures. If you are identified, you will be ejected from the game, lose your season tickets and be referred to the judicial administrator.

Thank you for your positive support of Big Red Hockey.
[/q]
(bold added)

Unfortunately, they do say exactly what you can't do and exactly what will happen to you if they catch you doing it. I've never dealt with these people myself, but it sounds to me like your pseudolegal case is just about zilch, and your best bet would be to throw yourself at their knees and beg for mercy.

But as someone above pointed out, what are they going to do to revoke your season pass? Make you give back all your tickets? What stops you from saying "oh sorry, I was walking to class and I accidentally dropped them in the gorge"?

[Q]Matthew Janiga Wrote:
Additonally, you might be able to satisfy the legal elements of undue influence or duress. Of course, if you want legal advice that holds water you should Beej. He's further along in his legal career than I am.
[/q]

First of all, it's illegal for you to be giving legal advice.

Second, it's still illegal for me to be giving legal advice. I passed the Bar exam, like, five minutes ago.

Beeeej

Matt, what an amazingly thoughtful load of BS. And I thought I was laying in on thick. Your deconstruction of Cornell's case indicates you'll go far in your chosen profession and stands as an eloquent rebuke to those who say Sun writers can't write. Actually, this was nice stuff. Maybe you can be available if the cowbell team gets hassled in what we hope is never again a return to Mariucci.

I didn't see legal advice being offered. It was scholarly insight into the Cornell condition.

at the very least, if it's not illegal, it's a matter of bad public policy

the 2 random curses throughout a 3 hour game:
1. add to the atmosphere without being michigan-like overkill
2. can't be heard clearly across the ice anyway
3. and the ithaca parents should learn to toughen up and stop bitching about their kids' sensitive ears. these are the same people that cry about the janet jackson thing. in the course of your child's life, he is destined to hear the word "asshole" - most likely from his friends or parents or busdriver. in a world of bigotry and terrorism and school shootings, you gotta pick your battles. no game where your players are essentially encouraged to beat the crap out of the other team and your students spend most of the game personally berating the opposing players can possibly be called a family atmosphere.

-mike '04

So people in row 5 were kicked farther back too?

Wasn't it in the movie Meet the Fockers that the baby learns the dreaded word. If memory serves, that movie has a PG-13 rating. So I guess Cornell is shooting for a "G" rated Hockey experience.

Chris

thanks for the spell check

[Q]A-19 Wrote:

the 2 random curses throughout a 3 hour game:
...
2. can't be heard clearly across the ice anyway
[/q]

Just listen to Live at Lynah..you really can't tell anyone says "asshole."
Granted, if I remember correctly, this was during the time people were trying to completely replace "asshole" with "goon" so it got all mixed up anyway...but I may be wrong (I was 11 at the time...I certainly didn't mind yelling asshole
)

Can't really distinguish it on the CSTV audio, either.

asphalt works as a fine substitute

Ctenah,
Keep us posted as to the results of all this business

You may also want to go the route of contacting the Cornell Ombudsman's office. He presented in one of my classes today, and I instantly thought of this situation.

[web.cornell.edu]

(summary at bottom)

Despite all that wording about profanity and abusive language, I'm inclined to think that the key sentence on the ticket back is "This ticket is a revocable license which may be withdrawn at any time for any reason." Assuming that whoever wrote that up in the first place knew what (s)he was doing, and it's legally sound, then they could (in theory) kick you out for, well, any reason. In this case, the reason is he thought the usher saw/heard you say something, but the reason could just as well be that the usher felt flatulent, and wanted to evacuate an entire section to avoid embarrassment, and it would be within the terms of the ticket agreement.

As far as the JA thing, as long as you complied with the instructions of the usher, I don't see anything in the campus code of conduct [www.policy.cornell.edu] that would make saying a profane word at a loud, crowded hockey game punishable. The most relevant part (it seems to me) is Title 2, Article IIA, which makes it a violation [Q]To disrupt or obstruct or attempt to disrupt or obstruct any instructional, research, service, judicial or other University operation or function, or interfere with or attempt to interfere with the lawful exercise of freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of peaceable assembly, or other rights of individuals, by action including but not limited to the following:[/Q]Summarizing what follows, you can't threaten, be violent, get in the way, or incite others, and I don't think you did any of those things, nor were you otherwise disruptive or intending to be disruptive, in the context of the hockey game. Of course, if you stood at the gate of Williard Straight Hall, and said "see ya, you goon" to each person as they exited, that probably would be disruptive.

The only other problem I could see is that, if you received the e-mail that ftyuv posted, it might be covered by Title 3, Article IIA, which makes it a violation[Q]To refuse to comply with any lawful order of a clearly identifiable University official acting in the performance of his or her duties or with a policy that has been duly promulgated by the University or any college, department, or unit thereof, whether or not the policy has been issued in the standardized University format[/Q] You can make the points that 1) an e-mail doesn't constitute a clearly identifiable University official or that 2) getting into semantics, the e-mail only says there will be zero tolerance for profane or threatening language, it doesn't say that you are ordered (or instructed, told, commanded, whatever) to actually not use such language, but I doubt that either of these will be found convincing if Athletics decides to go down this road.

You can read about the JA process here: [cuinfo.cornell.edu]. Among the highlights:
The level of burden of proof is "clear and convincing", which falls somewhere more than the 50/50 Janiga mentions for real world civil suits, but less than the "beyond reasonable doubt" for criminal cases.
The accused has the following rights (the ones I find relevant):
* the right to bring a friend or counselor (who is not connected to the case), including the Judicial Codes Counselor, to any meeting [I don't know whether there's a limit on the number of people]
* the right to take the case to the University Hearing Board and compel the Judicial Administrator to prove allegations against you by clear and convincing evidence
* the right to question witnesses
* the right to confront your accusers
* the right to present evidence and witnesses on your own behalf
* the right to appeal a University Hearing Board decision to the University Review Board
* the right to know the resolution of your case

In summary, I don't think you can make them give your season tickets back (although, if you're nice about it, you may get them to choose to give them back). I do think that you should be able to get through the JA process without any actual punishment.

Thank you everyone for your advice, once again. I will keep you posted as to what happens. (Absolutely nothing so far, but it is T-day break).

-Steve

Wouldn't it be a wonderful public service if the students were to provide the little kiddies and their hyper-sensitive parents a little flyer at the beginning of each game that spelled out in offical manner exactly what the students were saying?

Shining examples,
"See ya, asphalt... You loon!"
"rough 'em up (etc.)"
"Hey so-and-so, your mom called. She said, '2 ducks'"

Ok, so those cheers wouldn't make any sense. But it's not foul language (pardon the unavoidable pun) and apparently doesn't break any rules. Sure, the kids will ask questions, and there'll be some splainin to do, but this is an institution of learning, right? And what are they wannabecops going to throw you out for, bizarre cheering?

Heck, while we're at it, why not change all the cheers from now on, then publish the results so there's no question what is being shouted?

Here's a new one:
"Screw you, PD!" Oh, sorry, I mean, "CUPD!"

alright, i've read about half of the posts on this thread, so if i'm repeating something i'm sorry....but this all sounds like the same old stuff different night.

with the exception of keeping everyone off the concrete in section A, everything you guys have mentioned is nothing new. I used to sit in section A, Row 1 right on the aisle, next to I believe the usher in question's name is Carl, but I could be off with his name. and he's very consistant with his rules. He's always kicked people out when he hears them say bad words, he's always done a few random tickets checks throughout the season. nothing is new.

ctenah, sorry about what happened, but it happens, you were warned, everyone knows to be descrete with the bad words. everyone from gene to schafer have given the warning at one point or another. i'm sure it's not the end of your season tickets, you'll be back, just next time be more careful. and get to know the ushers, though he kicked you out he's not a bad guy. it's his job, you can't hate him for that, every "new" rule needs to be enforced and there is inevitably someone who serves as an example. and all we can do about it is be smart and not get caught as the example.

goodluck with working it all out. i really do hope things turn out in your favor

[Q]sen '08 Wrote:

What does standing on the concrete have to do with getting hit in the head with a puck? [/q]

yeah I was standing on a seat and got hit in the head with a puck

Thanks man.

Does this school suck? Yes.

Did I just get kicked out of the Princeton game? Yes.

Did I lie to the ticket office in order to keep my season tickets? Yes.

What was my crime? "Fuck em up, fuck em up, go CU"

Suddenly I care so much less about Hockey, and am pretty sure I will never donate to Cornell...great job you guys are doing, athletics department.

From the cheers page:

[Age's note: Thou shalt chant to two. No more. No less. Two shalt be the number thou shalt chant, and the number of the chanting shall be two. Three shalt thou not count, nor either count thou one, excepting that thou then proceed to two. Four is right out. Once the number two, being the second number, be reached, then, SHUT UP AND WATCH THE GAME!]

---

At the risk of being insensitive, what did you expect? You dropped an f-bomb - by yourself - in front of an usher.

This is assuming you are the one in row 5ish of B.

[Q]Free11Skier Wrote:

At the risk of being insensitive, what did you expect? You dropped an f-bomb - by yourself - in front of an usher.[/q]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one thinking this.

Seriously, I feel bad for those who get kicked out for swearing, because I do think it's a stupid rule (even while I acknowledge that Cornell is well within its rights to do so). But really, in most cases, you have nobody to blame but yourselves if you get kicked out.

[Q]anonymous Wrote:
What was my crime? "Fuck em up, fuck em up, go CU"[/q]
have you read the rest of this thread?? if ctenah got kicked out for participating (along with all of Lynah rink) in saying asshole, what were you expecting to happen if you shout "fuck 'em up" alone?
[Q]anonymous Wrote:
Suddenly I care so much less about Hockey[/q]
you're obviously a very dedicated fan
(do note the sarcasm)

There are a few assholes in row 5 who don't give a shit about the game. I was impressed to see all 1400 other faithful refuse to join in on the 3rd time when these drunks though it was a good idea. Mind you, these people are the same who printed/supported printing the quarter cards that were passed out tonight. Touch of irony there.

Well, in that case fuck all of you guys. But just for the record:

1. I'm not the guy in row "5 ish"

2. I never dropped the f-bomb alone. I was clearly participating in rock'n'roll part 2 right before the beginning of the third period.

3. Say whatever you want, I know I'm a very dedicated and knowledgable fan (not many fans always find/drive to bars where they can watch the estero games). But forget you if you can't understand why I'd be pissed off about being completely singled out of an entire section.

I was watching those guys chant that alone (I'm in section A) and the whole time I was thinking: I hope they don't yell fuck em' up...

I meen that old man was just waiting for them. Have some common sense/\

[Q]anonymous Wrote:
Well, in that case fuck all of you guys. But just for the record:
1. I'm not the guy in row "5 ish"[/q]
well, in that case you are another person that got booted. 'cause i am in row 5, and the guy standing in front of me (and one seat to the right) got kicked out too
[q]2. I never dropped the f-bomb alone. I was clearly participating in rock'n'roll part 2 right before the beginning of the third period.[/q]
if you are, in fact, not the "row 5ish" guy, I apologize for my comments.
if you are the "row 5ish" guy, you're right, i'm sorry, you weren't alone. there were about 4 guys who did it with you.
[q]But forget you if you can't understand why I'd be pissed off about being completely singled out of an entire section. [/q]
i can understand that. completely. i'm just saying to who (whom?)ever it was, doing that cheer alone (or nearly so) is asking to be kicked out.

[Q]anonymous Wrote:

Does this school suck? Yes.

Did I just get kicked out of the Princeton game? Yes.

Did I lie to the ticket office in order to keep my season tickets? Yes.

What was my crime? "Fuck em up, fuck em up, go CU"

Suddenly I care so much less about Hockey, and am pretty sure I will never donate to Cornell...great job you guys are doing, athletics department.[/q]

Listen, I'll be the first too admit the standards of what we can say is a little too strict, given the overall good nature of our cheers and what gets allowed elsewhere. That said, they are still the rules on the tickets we bought, and flaunting it directly and obviously is gonna get you in trouble. I'm not saying dont do the cheers, it certainly didnt stop me, but you gotta be subtle and on the look for ushers. Doing the cheer by yourself when (nearly) no one else is doing it isnt gonna do anything but get you booted.

I just remembered that those guys who brought quarter cards, and yelled the 3rd time, also did one more smart move: They decided to chant "Ugly" during the American National Anthem. I was impressed with their awareness (considering how drunk they were), but this was totally disrespectful to the country, fans, and hockey players. No, I am not a crazy conservative who loves everything the government does, but chanting in the middle of the national anthem is just wrong. If you read this, please don't do this again.

[Q]anonymous Wrote:

Does this school suck? Yes.

Did I just get kicked out of the Princeton game? Yes.

Did I lie to the ticket office in order to keep my season tickets? Yes.

What was my crime? "Fuck em up, fuck em up, go CU"

Suddenly I care so much less about Hockey, and am pretty sure I will never donate to Cornell...great job you guys are doing, athletics department.[/q]

To Anonymous

It shouldn't be a surprise at this point. Dropping any kind of bomb at a game is gonna get you kicked out if you're not paying attention to who's listening to you. Coming here looking for sympathy when 90% of us here have been in your position in the stands, and most of us have managed not to be kicked out, isn't going to accomplish anything.

And you are hardly being the "only" ones singled out if there are multiple people complaining about it. you've had multiple warnings, next time listen to them.

Caring less about Hockey and threatening to not donate to the school, I'm sure that makes the athletic department want to bow down to your needs and what you want to do every game, because your single donation is certainly going to make or break them.

You said you lied to keep your season tickets, grow up this time around, enjoy the game, humor the rules, and you shouldn't have a problem

I got kicked out tonight. I guess I said "Asshole" too loud and the usher was able to hear from behind me somehow. Luckily [extreme sarcasm] I was booted right before we made a comeback in the third. Nice way to finish my time at Cornell considering I am graduating in January. I am sure many were glad to see me go.... then they didn't have to hear me yell "FIESTY FELINES" at the Bobcats. Next game [for me].... @ Quinnipiac! See you there. At least the ushers at other rinks won't kick me out when I scream A-hole.