Article on schools applying for ECAC membership

Jim Teresco posted the following link to HOCKEY-L and I thought it was worth cross posting here. It's by Ken Schott of the Capitol region's Daily Gazette (can't remember the town...)
[www.dailygazette.net]

[Q]KeithK Wrote:

Jim Teresco posted the following link to HOCKEY-L and I thought it was worth cross posting here. It's by Ken Schott of the Capitol region's Daily Gazette (can't remember the town...)
[www.dailygazette.net][/q]

Ah, you know it! You just don't want to have to carefully spell out "Schenectady." Between that and Rens ... Renns ... oh, heck, RPI, the Albany area is tough on writers.

I admit, I did figure it Sche... whatever.

Article from the Schenectady Gazette says a lot about nothing on the first page (I used to be good at that. It's a skill that does not come easily.). It says Holy Cross and Qunnipiac "have been mentioned" as candidates. Later on the jump page it says Army and Mercyhurst "have also been mentioned as candidates" and Niagara "is also considering applying."

The story quotes the Union coach saying, "We want to do what's best for the league."

The RPI AD is quoted as saying, "We're not sure how many [apps] we'll get ... We hear hear rumblings here and there." He also promises "we'll do a thorough review."

Quinnipiac says "it's a thrill" to be asked if they're a potential candidate. The Cross says it's "potentially very interested" in the ECAC.

Mercyhurst outright says it's applying.

Union's coach, Nate Leaman, said "There's a consensus in our league that we want to play more games." I wonder if that's true (consensus) of all or just of the non-Ivy schools since the Ivies limit themselves to 29 games (meaning 7 of 29 pre-Vermont-departure) while the others play 34 (meaning 12 dates to fill, 14 should no one replace Vt.). Should the ECAC go all-out and expand to 14 teams, that would give Cornell and the other Ivies three open games. You could play a one-game series with say Michigan State in late October, and then play a two-game non-league holiday tournament. That's it.

Among these promises, the potential applicants' enthusiasm, and Phil Buttafuoco stepping back from the hockey role, this should "potentially" be some kind of conference. eh?

Yeah, the article isn't exactly a gold mine of new information. But the fact that Mercyhurst is definitely applying was news to me.

[Q]KeithK Wrote:

Yeah, the article isn't exactly a gold mine of new information. But the fact that Mercyhurst is definitely applying was news to me. [/q]

Mercyhurst is a long bleeping way from Ithaca (240 miles), and compared to the rest of the ECAC, we're practially next-door neighbors.

Adding Mercyhurst, which is doing okay-to-good in a couple sports like hockey and lax, would round the league back up to a dozen teams. But there is no natural weekend playing partner for Friday-Saturday games.

I wonder if the league is so intent on puffing up its image (I think the ECAC is seen as the weakest of the *major* hockey conferences) that it might overexpand and hope that a couple of the newcomers play good hockey. What if Holy Cross gets in, does well, and decides in five years that Hockey East is more of a natural fit?

Geographically Mercyhurst isn't a good fit. But the fact that they can come out and say they're applying tells me that the league hasn't discouraged them. Not to say that applying equals acceptance but I doubt they would apply without at least testing the waters informally first.

[Q]KeithK Wrote:

Geographically Mercyhurst isn't a good fit. But the fact that they can come out and say they're applying tells me that the league hasn't discouraged them. Not to say that applying equals acceptance but I doubt they would apply without at least testing the waters informally first.
[/q]

The ECAC recalls its glory years when the ECAC basked in the glory of the Penn State football heroics and hockey powers like BU and BC. Maybe it's intent on extending its hegemony westward to the Ohio border, fearful that a western (really western) Pennsylvania team might think it's part of the central collegiate hockey realm.

And yes you're right that before you apply, you see if the club will actually have you as a member.

Mercyhurst + Niagara as a combo still makes more sense from a travel schedule except, whoops, still nobody to pair with Dartmouth geographically because you're back at odd number of teams.

I'm not sure the big deal about adding two teams - if Vermont wasn't leaving - would we be having a big discussion about adding a 13th team - probably not. To add two teams, you either have to realign travel partners or rethink the whole notion of travel partners. As was suggested elsewhere, pairing Princeton with Mercyhurst doesn't work, nor would pairing Cornell (the furthest west) with Niagara or Mercyhurst. Holy Cross would work with Dartmouth. Adding a Mercyhurst or Niagara along with Holy Cross might be the best solution if the Ivies could go up to 31 games and everybody else to 36 by having each team either go to or host Mercyhurst or Niagara for a weekend pair of games and pairing Holy Cross with Dartmouth. Adding Mercyhurst and Niagara gives a nice pairing but what about Dartmouth and woe be the player who has to sit on a bus from Hanover to Erie.

Getting the Ivy presidents to say yes to two more games would help immensely - without the rest of the ECAC going +2 games also (they already have more). As a fan I love the idea. Of course, there is the quaint notion that Ivy League hockey players are students. If I were an Ivy president, I'd say "yes ... so long as the season doesn't start earlier or end later or happen during exam week," meaning they'd have to find a couple midweek games in January. Or is there an open weekend now after Christmas and before the start of classes? I don't think so. and I don't see playing the weekend before Christmas (are exams over?) as a big winner, either.

Again based on this quaint notion that academcis ought to get a passing nod, why the two week lag between the quarterfinals and the champsionship weekend? The only one I can think of is not wanting to go head to head with NCAA final four weekend. Of course, NCAA hockey could play a Friday-Sunday series and just hope Brigham Young doesn't make it to the title game.

I'm confused, Bill... Are you alluding to the possibility that Penn State would go DI?

Wait, are these the same Ivy Presidents who thinks it's okay for three Ivy schools to keep playing and practicing lacrosse during spring final exams, but not okay for ONE football team to keep playing possibly closer to fall final exams in the D-IAA playoffs. That football thing has always been a sore point with me.

[Q]jmh30 Wrote:

I'm confused, Bill... Are you alluding to the possibility that Penn State would go DI?[/q]

Sorry if I confused you. I meant only that the ECAC is a political animal (as is the NCAA, the USOC, etcetera) and in addition to doing what's best for its members, the ECAC perhaps fondly thinks back to the days when it was more powerful than it is now ... and thinks about what it can do to recapture old glory.

The allusion to Penn State was to its days as an independent within the framework of the ECAC. Penn State still gets counted in the Lambert Poll for best eastern school but it's Big Ten now. Nothing to do with the possibility of Penn State trying to become a Division I powerhouse.Though now that you mention it ... if Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Wisconis all are D1 powers ....

Similarly, ECAC hockey was relegated to second class citizenship when Hockey East broke off. Or to put the best light on it, the ECAC is the lesser of equals compared to Hockey East.

By snaring Mercyhurst, Holy Cross, and Qunnipiac (if it does), the ECAC is grabbing on to teams that *could* in five years be nationally ranked (top ten, not "also receiving votes". Mercyhurst is so far west in the east that it could just as easily have gone to the CCHA, which has Ohio schools such as Ohio State, Miami, and Bowling Green that would be geographically closer than most ECAC schools. (Of couse, it also has Alaska Fairbanks and Nebraska-Omaha). I think the ECAC desperately wants someone that can look good in the NCAA final four. Right now in the ECAC, there are a half-dozen schools that could every third or fourth year, one of them could, make a run for the final four. But it's not like BU, BC, UNH, and Maine all being capable of going all the way every other year.

That's what I think.

The ECAC ought to choose the most competitive programs that are available to it, and I'd rather get a team that has been doing well than a small conference bottom feeder. But don't expect miracles. Whoever joins is going to be ghastly for years. The most to hope for is that they aren't satisfied with being ghastly forever (Army, Union) and someday become a credible member of the league.

i think that adding a buffalo area school with mercyhurst and holy cross would make sense for traveling - i doubt they would pair cornell with mercyhurst and would try to add a buffalo area team if they added mercyhurst. what about pairing harvard with dartmouth and brown with a CT area team?
we shall see what happens.
not sure how i feel about two more games added to the ivies but we shall see.

Are you saying 14 teams with Mercyhurst-Niagara or Canisius as traveling partners and Brown and say Quinnipiac as travel partners plus Harvard-Dartmouth? I don't see it. I can't see asking both Dartmouth and Mercyhurst to both make an extremely long weekend trek each year.

For Niagara, a Harvard-Brown roadtrip would be 956 miles in a weekend.
For Mercyhurst, a Harvard-Brown roadtrip would be 1,132 miles in a weekend although that might involve flying.
For Dartmouth, a Niagara-Mercyhurst roadtrip would be 1,002 miles in a weekend.

Geographically, I think it's risky to consider taking on Mercyhurst or Niagara.

Part of Hockey East's success is the huge fan support teams have on the road made easier when BU, BC, Northeastern, UMass-Lowell, Providence, UMass, UNH and Merrimack are all within a two-hour drive of each other and five (BU, BC, Northeastern, Merrimack and Lowell) within an hour of each other. Adding Vermont does seem to go against that.

I know Cornell fans like to roadtrip but clearly fans of other schools don't make even somewhat short trips so adding teams far away would seem to worsen the issue.

Anybody see any possibility that the ECAC might consider a DIII school if they were interested in playing up? Not far from UVM, we have Norwich which has been successful in recent years at the ECAC DIII level and on the DIII national level.

[q]Anybody see any possibility that the ECAC might consider a DIII school if they were interested in playing up? Not far from UVM, we have Norwich which has been successful in recent years at the ECAC DIII level and on the DIII national level.[/q]Isn't there a moratorium on new schools playing up? Regardless, any school that plays up is going to be at a disadvantage without scholarships (no grandfathering for them) and will likely struggle ala Union.

You've laid out a bunch of interesting possibilities. No matter how you play it, these real problems remain:

Cornell is now the westernmost outpost of the ECAC for D1 hockey. It has a nifty and logical travel partner in Colgate.

The team that bailed, Vermont, was equally close to its erstwhile travel partner, Dartmouth.

Mercyhurst, a team that really wants in, is another 200-250 miles farther away. Erie, Pa, is really a northeastern extension of Ohio. (CCHA country.) The one possible, possibly logical travel partner, would be Niagara.

So if Mercyhurst comes in by itself it's back to an even number of teams.

If a Quinnipiac or Holy Cross comes in, it's possible to find a travel partner for Dartmouth but you're really overfilling the schedule as far as the Ivies (29 game limit) are concerned.

[Q]Tom Pasniewski 98 Wrote:

Anybody see any possibility that the ECAC might consider a DIII school if they were interested in playing up? Not far from UVM, we have Norwich which has been successful in recent years at the ECAC DIII level and on the DIII national level.[/q]

Another possibility: One wonders if Union may get tired of getting kicked around in Division 1 and back down a notch? Perhaps there's a limit to how long Union can coast on the magic that Ned Harkess brought many long years ago.

Union's current president, I believe, was not a big supporter of continuation of the exemption for dinky colleges playing D1 hockey.

That said, I love that little schools -- Hopkins in lacrosse most of all, RPI / SLU / Clarkson / Colorado College in hockey, Hartwick in soccer -- tweak the big schools regularly. If big time NCAA sports doesn't like this David Beats Goliath atmosphere, that's reason enough for me to like it.

[Q]Tom Pasniewski 98 Wrote:

I don't see it. I can't see asking both Dartmouth and Mercyhurst to both make an extremely long weekend trek each year.

For Niagara, a Harvard-Brown roadtrip would be 956 miles in a weekend.
For Mercyhurst, a Harvard-Brown roadtrip would be 1,132 miles in a weekend although that might involve flying.
For Dartmouth, a Niagara-Mercyhurst roadtrip would be 1,002 miles in a weekend.

Geographically, I think it's risky to consider taking on Mercyhurst or Niagara.
[/q]
I see it differently. I see the geographical distances as being the least concerning issue. Large and small schools in both the CCHA and WCHA routinely make weekend trips that are over 1000 miles. One way. 7 of the 9 WCHA trips for Denver and CC are over 1000 miles one way. The distances you talk about aren't really outrageous. 500 miles? Horrors. There are exciting, modern methods of transportation that allow teams and fans to travel great distances, you know.

With Cornell making OOC ties with the CCHA, we've been traveling a long distance in recent years. If it's fans you're worried about, Clarkson, RPI, and Cornell are pretty much the only ECAC schools that have proven to travel everywhere well. Heck, Harvard fans can't be bothered to even cross the Charles much of the time.

Basically, which would you rather have...a provincial conference crammed into a saturated market with direct competition with Hockey East, or a league with broad appeal becoming entrenched into new markets and fan-bases? I think the league can take some steps in improving it's image and level of play by going to places like Buffalo, Erie, perhaps Pittsburgh (Robert Morris is adding a D-1 team). If it means 1 longer roadtrip/year for some teams or even some flights, so be it. Should college hockey's appeal continue to expand, I'd rather our league be proactive and try to be at the forefront of the trend rather than standing on the sideline watching.

If a school applying for membership makes sense and can add long term value to the league in reputation, market size (thus fan base), competition, and committment to establishing a quality program, I'm all for it. Be it in Worcester, Erie, Niagara Falls...the travel and scheduling details will work out themselves. I think it would be a mistake to first decide what schedule you want and then see what schools "fit" that plan.

And (I'm dreaming big here) if teams in Syracuse or State College ever start thinking about making the jump say in 10-15 years, I want the ECAC to be *THE* conference they would absolutely lust about joining. How the league manages this expansion can be the first step to achieving that status.

[Q]

Basically, which would you rather have...a provincial conference crammed into a saturated market with direct competition with Hockey East, or a league with broad appeal becoming entrenched into new markets and fan-bases? I think the league can take some steps in improving it's image and level of play by going to places like Buffalo, Erie, perhaps Pittsburgh (Robert Morris is adding a D-1 team). If it means 1 longer roadtrip/year for some teams or even some flights, so be it. Should college hockey's appeal continue to expand, I'd rather our league be proactive and try to be at the forefront of the trend rather than standing on the sideline watching.

[/Q]

Taking the ECAC as a whole, New England and particularly eastern Massachusetts is already saturated, with 29 of the 43 ECAC schools in New England and at least 12 in Boston or its suburbs. That's mainly because DIII schools have no other option - they can't just join the NESCAC.

But I think your point is a good one. At the DI level, we do have three conferences who have shown an ability to accept schools no matter how far east, west or south they are located. I think the ECAC is already an attractive alternative for schools who may not want to be subjected to being beaten up by Michigan, Michigan State, North Dakota and Minnesota in their first few years but AD's may have aspirations of bringing glory to their campus by getting to play and eventually beat those programs on a regular basis.

Another interesting option could be Navy if they come around - a reach south by the ECAC in addition to a westward march to Buffalo and Erie. Navy is of course not at the point where any other team mentioned for inclusion is at.

I think we should evaluate any additions to the ECAC on the two criteria most likely to affect Cornell - are any of the 7 OOC games in jeopardy and if they are, what is the quality of the replacement games - i.e. the new additions to the ECAC.

[Q][I see it differently. I see the geographical distances as being the least concerning issue. Large and small schools in both the CCHA and WCHA routinely make weekend trips that are over 1000 miles. .... Basically, which would you rather have...a provincial conference crammed into a saturated market with direct competition with Hockey East, or a league with broad appeal becoming entrenched into new markets and fan-bases? I think the league can take some steps in improving it's image and level of play by going to places like Buffalo, Erie, perhaps Pittsburgh (Robert Morris is adding a D-1 team). If it means 1 longer roadtrip/year for some teams or even some flights, so be it. Should college hockey's appeal continue to expand, I'd rather our league be proactive and try to be at the forefront of the trend rather than standing on the sideline watching. [/q]

You've made really good arguments for considering expansion. Accepting Buffalo / western Pennsylvania schools would move Cornell out of the geographic fringe of the ECAC. If college hockey gets even bigger, the league is helping the expansion. And it really would be great if a Syracuse and Penn State had real D1 hockey programs. Those teams would add luster to the ECAC.

Still:

- While western teams fly to games, it's because they have to, not want to. It adds cost and complexity.
- Cornell playing one weekend in Michigan and one weekend in Florida (over break) is not the same as flying every second weekend.
- The teams looking to get into ECAC are building their programs. This is not a BC or Miami (in football) looking for better competition in a different league. None of them immediately help the perception of the ECAC as a softer league.
- Nothing stops them from looking elsewhere if and when they get good. (Although that can be said of any league.)
- If Mercyhurst comes in by itself, you've got a geographic loose end. No other ECAC school is 250 miles from its next closest league team.
- If the Ivy presidents lock it at 29 pre-tournament games, the Ivies have little flexibility.

Well, heck, let's see what happens. No matter what, the winner of the ECACs goes on to the NCAAs.

Or maybe an ECAC expansion will lead to the Ivies breaking off into a seperate league. If they can still get an automatic bid w/ 6 teams, that makes playing only 29 pre-NCAA games a lot easier on the out-of-conference schedule.

[Q]mgl11 Wrote:

Or maybe an ECAC expansion will lead to the Ivies breaking off into a seperate league. If they can still get an automatic bid w/ 6 teams, that makes playing only 29 pre-NCAA games a lot easier on the out-of-conference schedule.[/q]

Even better if we convinced Penn to pick up hockey again. Columbia is a lost cause, although given the Rangers' record, the Lions could well be the best hockey team in New York if they took up the sport.

The NCAA has used automatic qualifier status as a carrot to fuel growth of the sport. When Cornell doesn't make the NCAAs in hockey or lacrosse, we can point to one or two teams (at least) that auto-qualified that Cornell could hang out to dry. Better to think of it as affirmative action that harms no one since the NCAAs expanded from four up to 16 teams and in the bubble seasons, Cornell wouldn't have been one of the four or eight.

Perhaps not surprisingly, like Rich I prefer to look at this as a big pond/little pond issue. The current ECAC is a little pond with more minnows than big or mid-size fish. (The big fish are we, Hah-vahd, and Clarkson; the mid-size fish are RPI and the Larries; and the rest are minnows. I see only Colgate as a growing fish with staying power in this scheme.) The question is whether we want to be in a little pond full of minnows or a big pond chock full o' minnows with potential for growth. While it is next to impossible for the ECAC to get TV and media exposure--which hurts our recruiting more than the minnows'--as a little pond, if the league moves into the Buffalo and New England markets we start to reach many more people. (Remember how the Buffalo/Rochester media adopted Cornell as their own for the Final Four.) All of a sudden, the ECAC becomes the small school conference with huge geographic breadth that is exciting to watch. So, let's view expansion, whatever hardships it may bring, as a good thing.

To whit, I suggest a radical expansion for the league:

IVY		WEST		EAST
--------------------------------------------
Harvard		Clarkson	Holy Cross
Cornell		St. Lawrence	Quinnipiac
Princeton	Colgate		Sacred Heart
Dartmouth	Mercyhurst	Army
Brown		Niagara		Union
Yale 		Canisius	RPI

Yep, back to the old super-big ECAC. Cherry pick all the best squads (Army is included for nostalgia) from the MAAC and Niagara, arrange them in divisions, and go at it. Home and homes against divisional teams, and one shots against other divisions for a total of 22 games (sounds familiar, eh?). I say seed the teams for the playoffs in bands by divisional finish and then seed the bands by overall conference record--promotes parity, which is what the ECAC has always been about. Drop two teams--who needs em anyway--and start with a sweet 16, or just start with 8. (That would make overall play *very* important for those last two teams). I still say we'd be big fish, but in a much bigger pond. If someone could rook the NCAA into giving us two auto-quals for being such a huge conference, all the better.

All good points. Actually, the CCHA and WCHA travel issues look even more daunting when you factor in the Alaska trips. I don't remember all the details, but IIRC the WCHA lightens the travel burden by not scheduling home and away series between geographically dispersed teams every year. The ECAC could probably figure out how to do this, if necessary. An interesting by-product is that a net reduction in ECAC games, even if the league expanded by three or more teams, would allow scheduling more OOC games. This would be a nice way to compensate for ECAC teams having to play new, weaker teams inside the conference after expansion.

Matt-

Very interesting idea. However, the only way I could see having 2 AQs under NCAA rules is to have 2 conferences: Ivy and ECAC. Thus, you make Ivy a separate Conference on paper with an interlocking schedule in practice.

Don't have time to figure out how this affects your playoff structure. Maybe someone else can?

I don't think the NCAA would allow de jure separate conferences to share a playoff, unless they only awarded one AQ to the champion (in which case you would lose the benefit of declaring as two separate conferences).

If not three conferences (Ivy, ECAC East, ECAC West) coming out of the ECAC, perhaps two conferences:

ECAC Ivy League and almost-Ivy (Colgate, RPI, Union if it sticks D1)

ECAC Safe Schools & parochial schools (St. Lawrence, Niagara, Holy Cross, Mercyhurst)

... 'course, you might need different official wording to make it palatable.

The only thing to worry about there -- making sure that Cornell - Harvard play home and home every year.

[q]The only thing to worry about there [/q]That's not the only thing. I worry anytime someone suggests splitting the Ivy schools off into their own league or division. That just seems like a step down toward second-class status like Ivy basketball or football (or is that third class sstatus?)

[Q]KeithK Wrote:
That's not the only thing. I worry anytime someone suggests splitting the Ivy schools off into their own league or division. That just seems like a step down toward second-class status like Ivy basketball or football (or is that third class sstatus?)[/q]

Unlike basketball and football, Ivy hockey has been able to make some noise on the national stage. Is it possible that a six team Ivy league with an autobid would aid recruiting because of the increased chance (on paper anyway) of making the NCAA tournament? The additional out of conference games would give us the chance to boost strength of schedule.

I'd suggest that the success of Ivy hockey has a lot to do with being a part of the ECAC. Until the last few years the non-Ivies have tended to be more successful than the Ivies (he says without looking for stats to back up his claim). A separate Ivy league would be more likely, IMO, to go the way of the other sports.

Now in fairness, hockey isn't football or basketball. Ivy football was doomed in the first place by the I-AA classification. But aside from that, football and basketball are much bigger sports in terms of popularity and participation. Top talent is much more likely to go to a state school with scholarships in these sports, both because there are more schools giving them out and because athletes are less likely to be able to afford a non-scholarship school. Hockey by nature is an expensive sport to play, much more so than basketball or football. Parents who pay for the skates and ice time for their kid are more likely to be able to afford a less-subsidized private college education.

I feel like I'm blathering, but my point was that maybe the Ivies could retain some national visibility as a separate conference. But personally I like having the other schools in the league. I'll even miss the damn Mount-a-cats.

One gets the feeling the ECAC expansion will be, is being, discussed more thoroughly and intelligently on eLynah than maybe the ECAC itself will do.

It would make for a great Here's What They Oughta Do column on USCHO.com.

Nothing against Union, but you may want reconsider your groupings which obviously implies that Union belongs in the "almost Ivy" and HC does not. I just checked the stats and HC is higher ranked than Union. According to Princeton Review, HC has an admissions selectivity of 92 (100 being the most difficult), while Union is 91. HC's academic rating is 94, Union's 87. HC's composite SAT is higher and it's listed in Barron's Most Competitive Colleges. Union isn't.

[Q]Federal Hill Wrote:

Nothing against Union, but you may want reconsider your groupings which obviously implies that Union belongs in the "almost Ivy" and HC does not. I just checked the stats and HC is higher ranked than Union. According to Princeton Review, HC has an admissions selectivity of 92 (100 being the most difficult), while Union is 91. HC's academic rating is 94, Union's 87. HC's composite SAT is higher and it's listed in Barron's Most Competitive Colleges. Union isn't. [/q]

If the ECAC were to look for one Atlantic Hockey school to replace Vermont, Holy Cross would get my vote. Certainly over Quinnipiac.

Under no circumstances should we have the Ivy League as a separate conference. It would make hockey the same as basketball. Sorry, Penn and Princeton may win the Ivy League on a regular basis, but there ain't no way they're ever going to win more than one game in the NCAA's in a given year.

And what would you rather: an Ivy autobid followed by a crushing loss in the first round, because the league just stinks, or an Ivy-inclusive broader confererence with a genuine chance of winning a few games or even the tournament.

I know my choice.

JH

The Ivies' insularity in other sports certainly hurts their competiteness. Granted, in hoops and football it comes from the best of motives (cough we don't cheat uncough), but in hockey the Big Money issues are not as pronounced and it doesnt taint us to remain in contact with the Michigans, North Dakotas, and even the Maines.

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:.

And what would you rather: an Ivy autobid followed by a crushing loss in the first round, because the league just stinks, or an Ivy-inclusive broader confererence with a genuine chance of winning a few games or even the tournament.

I know my choice.

JH[/q]

We're seeing the crushing-loss part in the first round of the NCAA lax tournament where some of the lowest-seeded, auto-bid team get rolled over. OTOH five years from now, when their 13-5 losses are way in the past, the players can say, "Senior year, our team made the NCAAs."

"When the one great scorer ..." and all.

For Cornell at least, it comes down to the question: do we care more about being in a conference with RPI and Clarkson, or with Princeton and Yale? As long as we can have our Ivy cake and eat it too within a wider conference of other traditional rivals, the benefit of making the NCAAs (which we've done about as often as we've won the Ivies lately anyway) isn't worth giving that up.

Given the choice, I'd rather be playing in a conference with RPI and Clarkson and Princeton and Yale and BU and BC. And we used to.

The Ivies shot themselves in the head once. Let's not do it again.

I know this could never really happen, but...

Rather than add a team, I think the ECAC should dump Union back to a lower level league where they belong. It would be justice for Union voting against Div III schools being allowed to play up in a single sport. It would also increase the level of competition in the ECAC, and open up two more opportunities for the good ECAC teams to schedule games against other top talent.

I believe a USCHO board expression is in order here:

Go get me a beer!

I don't care who's in the conference as long as that confernce is as competitive as the current conference or preferably more so. And yes, that means if the Ivy league forces the ECAC to be non-competitive, I fully support Cornell leaving the Ivy League. Always have. Always will.

It is possible for a college to maintain academic standards and competitive teams. Just not in the self indulgent world of the Ivy League.

JH

Oh, but then section B wouldn't be able to do the irritating Which team is the Ivy League? chant when we lose....

But you could start an "Ivy League....knew better...Ivy League...knew better" cheer if we beat an Ivy school.

JH

Of course, we all know the likelihood of Cornell leaving the Ivy League is about as great as North Dakota being invited to join.

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

It is possible for a college to maintain academic standards and competitive teams. Just not in the self indulgent world of the Ivy League.

JH[/q]


The prime example is Stanford, which is sort of Cornell West -- for its links at its founding, for its team color. It is what Cornell would be if it were a big time athletic power and a school of academic excellence. I believe it was Stanford and Texas that were considered by Sports Illustrated to have the best overall college sports programs.

Not sure if the official announcement has been mentioned here yet, but Niagara applied for ECAC membership this weekend.

[Q]Niagara submits bid to join ECAC hockey
LEWISTON, N.Y. (AP) - Niagara University has submitted a bid to
have its men's and women's hockey teams join the Eastern Collegiate
Athletic Conference.
The application was made before Saturday's deadline for
submissions, and announced by Niagara on Monday. The ECAC is
seeking a school to replace Vermont, which is leaving the
conference to join Hockey East at the start of the 2005-06 season.
The potential move would be a step up in competition for
Niagara's hockey programs, which were established in 1996. The
Purple Eagles are currently members of College Hockey America, a
conference made up of programs stretching from Alabama to Colorado.
The ECAC's hockey leagues feature 12 men's and 11 women's
programs, including Cornell and Harvard.
In March, the Purple Eagles men's team qualified for the NCAA
tournament for the second time in five years. The women's team
competed in the 2002 NCAA Frozen Four tournament.
"Membership in the ECAC would give our men's and women's
programs added credibility and an exciting schedule," Niagara
athletic director Mike Hermann said. "Plus, the footprint of the
league includes many of our best alumni communities, especially
Central New York State, Albany, Boston, Western Connecticut and New
Jersey."[/q]

> The prime example is Stanford, which is sort of Cornell West

As much as I disliked Stanford, comparing it cornel west (http://www.cornelwest.com/) is low.

Reading the current article on USCHO about the AD's meeting to discuss the 5 proposals, it seems that things are very much up in the air. They're going into the process without much of a plan for how scheduling would work out for instance. Instead, they're just looking at which team fits the ECAC best. I very much fear what the schedule will look like when they're done. The travel partner thing has worked nicely. Can you see Cornell suddenly being paired with Niagara or Mercyhurst?

I see two travel pairings that stick no matter what. SLU and Clarkson will stay together and RPI and Union will stay together. Then I imagine there will be some shuffling amongst the New England teams (plus Princeton) or Cornell and Colgate.

I wonder how many teams they will accept. Does anyone think that as many as three teams might join? Would the ECAC consider Niagara, Mercyhurst, and one of the 3 applicants from New England?

[Q]Chris 02 Wrote:

Reading the current article on USCHO about the AD's meeting to discuss the 5 proposals, it seems that things are very much up in the air. They're going into the process without much of a plan for how scheduling would work out for instance. Instead, they're just looking at which team fits the ECAC best. I very much fear what the schedule will look like when they're done. The travel partner thing has worked nicely. Can you see Cornell suddenly being paired with Niagara or Mercyhurst?

I see two travel pairings that stick no matter what. SLU and Clarkson will stay together and RPI and Union will stay together. Then I imagine there will be some shuffling amongst the New England teams (plus Princeton) or Cornell and Colgate.

I wonder how many teams they will accept. Does anyone think that as many as three teams might join? Would the ECAC consider Niagara, Mercyhurst, and one of the 3 applicants from New England? [/q]

Here we go again. It's so frustrating. The schools that really want to be in (Mercyhurst especially) are in the middle of nowwhere compared to the rest of the ECAC. Someone who wouldn't make a bad entry geographically (Holy Cross) isn't quite as psyched as Mercyhurst. Poor Dartmouth otherwise is left hung out to dry.

It's bizarre for Cornell because you could see some oddball pairing like Cornell-Mercyhurst for travel purposes b/c we're closest. Actually it would be okay for us and murder on teams that have to bus to both places in a single weekend. Most likely they'd overnight Friday in the city (er, town) where they played then drive to the other site next day. Or it could lead the ECAC to have both games of the series be at school A one year, school B the next year (meaning two home games vs. Harvard followed by two away games the next). That would be marginally easier on the players; they might actually get a little more studying done Saturday morning. (Or they could just stay up later partying on Friday.)

The most merit to adding a lot of teams is that, like panning for gold, the ECAC might pick up some real nuggets. HC could well be a BC-level hockey power in a couple years. Better they're in our league than Hockey East.

And the Ivies are hurt by a 29-game cap on the regular season with the current 12 team alignment taking up 22 of the games.

Of course, if we had Friday/Sunday pairings it would be HORRIBLE for the traveling fans. Not a consideration, I know. I'm just sayin'.

[Q]Greg Berge Wrote:

Of course, if we had Friday/Sunday pairings it would be HORRIBLE for the traveling fans. Not a consideration, I know. I'm just sayin'. [/q]

Wouldn't be so great for the players either. Unlike the fans, they have to make all the away games.

What does the team do now for a Friday away game? Leave Thursday evening or Friday morning, or does it depend on how far the travel distance is? You don't really need to leave for Princeton until Friday morning unless there's a blizzard pending. For Harvard, you probably want to go up Thursday. Anyway, a Friday/Sunday series could have the players gone from Thursday afternoon (including practice time) until the early hours of Monday or maybe even Monday afternoon. Not good for grades.

It's the home games that would be Fri/Sun because of the distance between Cornell and Mercyhurst. The road games would still be Fri/Sat. God help Mercyhurst on their trips east, though.

[q]What does the team do now for a Friday away game?[/q]I haven't been on campus for a few years (ack, six!) but I seem to remember the team always leaving on Thursday. If it was a short trip they'd just leave later in the afternoon. I specifically remember the team pre-empting hockey class on Thursday afternoon before hitting the road.

Oh, I suppose Colgate might be an exception.