ECAC's moving to Atlantic City in 2011

adamw

Jim Hyla

adamw

Jim Hyla
Adam, you can put the what if's all you want; but the fact remains that for the huge majority of ECAC fans it is going to be a lot harder to get to AC.

I don't see that. Not among those most likely to actually attend. Even for local Ithaca fans - what place other than Albany that was being considered would be that much easier to get to? A few others are nominally closer - but not any easier. Since it's 3 1/2 from Ithaca to my house - and 1 1/2 from my house to AC ... that's 5 hrs from Ithaca to AC, tops. Where else is closer?

I was under the impression that Albany still wanted us. Is that not true? As I posted before " A quick google map measure gives the average school to Albany distance as 137 mi., while the AC distance is 300 mi." If you want to look at schools that travel well, you have to consider us, Clarkson, maybe SLU, and the rest. Certainly this decision is worse for all of the above. I can't imagine the average NC fan driving there.

Albany still wanted it - but the ECAC was not going to stay there given the attendance decline. So my point was, given the other options, what's better to get to?

It's true, the average NC fan - that lives in the NC - will not drive there. No one is denying that. Now I ask, how many of them drove to Albany the last couple years - with SLU and Clarkson at Albany? Not many. How many SLU/Clarkson fans that live near NYC/NJ will go to AC? Who knows. But I'm suggesting it will be at least as many. How many Cornell fans showed up at MSG? 13,000? How many showed up in Albany? 4,000? AC is not MSG, obviously - but just sayin'

Yeah, I agree with Adam here. Being geographically central to the League's schools wasn't getting fans to turn out in big numbers and the trend was awful. So trying a new location that offers something other than the hockey and may be more convenient to a different pool of fans to see if it can turn around attendance, while guaranteeing the league more money, doesn't sound unreasonable.

Al DeFlorio
Providence, Bridgeport and Hartford are "better to get to" for Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Quinnipiac; comparable for RPI, Union, Clarkson, and St. Lawrence; marginally more difficult for Cornell and Colgate; and clearly more difficult for Princeton.

This, of course, is not to mention that Rhode Island and eastern Massachusetts are hotbeds of college hockey. Who on the Jersey shore gives a hoot?

And how many fans in those hotbeds who don't have an association with an ECAC school and just want to watch some college hockey, given a choice of the ECAC tournament with a couple nearby schools that haven't done anything nationally and the Hockey East tournament with numerous nearby schools that have made some national noise of late (including winning it all) are going to show up at the ECAC's?

Short of being in the back yard, I'm not convinced any location is going to draw meaningful numbers from Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, or Yale. Q may be able to deliver fans to a reasonably accessible location, I'm not sure.

Al DeFlorio
Providence, Bridgeport and Hartford are "better to get to" for Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Quinnipiac; comparable for RPI, Union, Clarkson, and St. Lawrence; marginally more difficult for Cornell and Colgate; and clearly more difficult for Princeton.

This, of course, is not to mention that Rhode Island and eastern Massachusetts are hotbeds of college hockey. Who on the Jersey shore gives a hoot?

Alums. Pro hockey fans? I don't know.

Plus:
[www.collegehockeynews.com]

college hockey players from NJ: 24 ... from RI: 7 ... from PA: 41 ... from Mass. 99 (not all data is updated yet, as evidenced by the top number in the chart)

JasonN95

Al DeFlorio
Providence, Bridgeport and Hartford are "better to get to" for Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Quinnipiac; comparable for RPI, Union, Clarkson, and St. Lawrence; marginally more difficult for Cornell and Colgate; and clearly more difficult for Princeton.

This, of course, is not to mention that Rhode Island and eastern Massachusetts are hotbeds of college hockey. Who on the Jersey shore gives a hoot?

And how many fans in those hotbeds who don't have an association with an ECAC school and just want to watch some college hockey, given a choice of the ECAC tournament with a couple nearby schools that haven't done anything nationally and the Hockey East tournament with numerous nearby schools that have made some national noise of late (including winning it all) are going to show up at the ECAC's?

Short of being in the back yard, I'm not convinced any location is going to draw meaningful numbers from Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, or Yale. Q may be able to deliver fans to a reasonably accessible location, I'm not sure.

Exactly - which has been my point when I said "among those who care"

adamw
Plus:
[www.collegehockeynews.com]

college hockey players from NJ: 24 ... from RI: 7 ... from PA: 41 ... from Mass. 99 (not all data is updated yet, as evidenced by the top number in the chart)

And 180 players from Ontario, which is nowhere near Atlantic City.

And, if we're going to go that far (from Ithaca to Providence), why not just go back to Boston where we can all have a great time!!

I know, I know. It's not gonna happen in my life.....

adamw

Josh '99

adamw
Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

OK, you're right. But the fact that that particular storm made it difficult to drive from NJ to Albany, but wouldn't have if you were going to AC, doesn't preclude other storms from making it difficult for many people to drive to AC, but not if they were going to Albany.

And, I mean, if we're talking about the NYC area, then let's talk about NYC and not central NJ.

Well, I was talking about NYC in general - I was just saying how long it took me from Central NJ for the sake of journalistic accuracy, since I didn't drive through NYC on that trip ...

Also - since I've barely seen a snowflake here in 2 years - the odds of that storm affecting a drive to AC is a lot lot less than to Albany.

The odds of that storm affecting your drive from Central NJ to AC are a lot less than the odds of it affecting your drive from Central NJ to Albany. For people coming from most of the geographic area covered by the ECAC, a winter storm of reasonable size might easily affect northeast PA, downstate NY and western CT, and thus affect travel from eleven of the twelve schools. If the storm hit northern NJ, it'd also affect travel from NYC. Yes, there are storms that might affect travel to Albany but not to AC, but most likely, if there's a storm in this general area:



Then that storm will affect travel to AC for a large number of people just as it would for travel to Albany (or Bridgeport, or Lake Placid, or any other number of potential sites).

Josh '99
Then that storm will affect travel to AC for a large number of people just as it would for travel to Albany (or Bridgeport, or Lake Placid, or any other number of potential sites).

Obviously. But the point that started this thread of the conversation was whether there were other factors besides mileage that affected the relative travel issues between NYC-area->Albany vs. NYC-area->AC .... that was the only thing that part of the conversation was focusing on.

adamw
Albany still wanted it - but the ECAC was not going to stay there given the attendance decline. So my point was, given the other options, what's better to get to?

Is it really fair to blame the attendance decline on Albany (whether that means the location, the character of the city, or something the organizing committee did or didn't do), rather than on the fact that for the last couple of years, the schools that have been participating (other than Cornell and maybe St. Lawrence) just don't bring many fans? No Clarkson, no RPI, no Quinnipiac (who've shown signs that they can draw well), no Union (thus casual local fans). After maybe a one or two year novelty honeymoon where everyone says "ooh, let's try the tournament in Atlantic City", how do you think it'll draw down there if it's Harvard, Yale, Clarkson and Colgate, say?

redice
And, if we're going to go that far (from Ithaca to Providence), why not just go back to Boston where we can all have a great time!!

I know, I know. It's not gonna happen in my life.....

Because Boston sucks. F Boston.

adamw

Josh '99
Then that storm will affect travel to AC for a large number of people just as it would for travel to Albany (or Bridgeport, or Lake Placid, or any other number of potential sites).

Obviously. But the point that started this thread of the conversation was whether there were other factors besides mileage that affected the relative travel issues between NYC-area->Albany vs. NYC-area->AC .... that was the only thing that part of the conversation was focusing on.

Fine. And I maintain that many storms that would affect travel from NYC to Albany would also affect travel from NYC to Atlantic City.

Josh '99
And I maintain that many storms that would affect travel from NYC to Albany would also affect travel from NYC to Atlantic City.

And from Colgate, Cornell, Clarkson, St. Lawrence, Union, and RPI to Atlantic City, as well. Quite possibly from Yale, Quinnipiac, Brown, Harvard, and Dartmouth, too. The blizzard business was a spurious point in the first place.

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
And I maintain that many storms that would affect travel from NYC to Albany would also affect travel from NYC to Atlantic City.

And from Colgate, Cornell, Clarkson, St. Lawrence, Union, and RPI to Atlantic City, as well. Quite possibly from Yale, Quinnipiac, Brown, Harvard, and Dartmouth, too. The blizzard business was a spurious point in the first place.

At least it's now spurious instead of weak

a) it was just one of many points - b) check the snowfalls of the last 10 years and find how many storms of note occurred in the Hudson Valley region vs. the Jersey shore region in March. The ratio is probably 10 to 1. c) yes, all those other places will have a tougher time to get to AC than Albany ... however, that ties into part II of this discussion, which is - repeat - no one was coming from those places anyway, and, theoretically, as many or more interested parties will go to AC from closer locales than were otherwise attending.

How many Yale students were in Albany last year? Harvard ever?

BTW Josh - Clarkson, Quinnipiac were in Albany a couple years ago, and attendance was still lousy.

adamw
BTW Josh - Clarkson, Quinnipiac were in Albany a couple years ago, and attendance was still lousy.

Yeah, the attendance was 10,000. AC holds 10,300, so how were they going to get a lot more there. The average attendance at Albany was 10,185 (according to Ken Schott). The lowest in last 5 years was last year at 8,000. THe rest were 10,000 or more. You can't convince me that attendance was the problem when they go to an arena seating 10,300.



Maybe the ECAC office got more money with the move, but not more fans. At the best it'll be a wash and remember that money is coming out of our pockets; AC can't grow it on trees. If they gave more then they expect us to spend more.

Jim Hyla

adamw
BTW Josh - Clarkson, Quinnipiac were in Albany a couple years ago, and attendance was still lousy.

Yeah, the attendance was 10,000. AC holds 10,300, so how were they going to get a lot more there. The average attendance at Albany was 10,185 (according to Ken Schott). The lowest in last 5 years was last year at 8,000. THe rest were 10,000 or more. You can't convince me that attendance was the problem when they go to an arena seating 10,300.



Maybe the ECAC office got more money with the move, but not more fans. At the best it'll be a wash and remember that money is coming out of our pockets; AC can't grow it on trees. If they gave more then they expect us to spend more.

Weren't those figures of about 10,000 for both days of the tourney combined, and thus there were about 5,000 per day?

ursusminor

Jim Hyla

adamw
BTW Josh - Clarkson, Quinnipiac were in Albany a couple years ago, and attendance was still lousy.

Yeah, the attendance was 10,000. AC holds 10,300, so how were they going to get a lot more there. The average attendance at Albany was 10,185 (according to Ken Schott). The lowest in last 5 years was last year at 8,000. THe rest were 10,000 or more. You can't convince me that attendance was the problem when they go to an arena seating 10,300.



Maybe the ECAC office got more money with the move, but not more fans. At the best it'll be a wash and remember that money is coming out of our pockets; AC can't grow it on trees. If they gave more then they expect us to spend more.

Weren't those figures of about 10,000 for both days of the tourney combined, and thus there were about 5,000 per day?

You may be right on that. In fact, as I think about the crowds, of course you're right.

JasonN95
...and the trend was awful.

Skip it. Josh already said the same thing I was gonna say in his post just below.

We also had one year in there with Vermont coming to Albany. And they travel very well. If I had to guess that may be the peak year for attendance in Albany.

Draw a ring arounde the outer circle of ECAC school plus spokes from each school into Albany and it's even easier to see how Albany, charmless as it is, made sense. Atlantic City is the little amoeba tail at the bottom center. This will make Princeton's 50 traveling fans happy plus the Cornell Club of the Pine Barrens. The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

adamw
a) it was just one of many points - b) check the snowfalls of the last 10 years and find how many storms of note occurred in the Hudson Valley region vs. the Jersey shore region in March. The ratio is probably 10 to 1.

But that's not the point. Even if there aren't many storms that actually hit south Jersey in mid-March, there are more storms that hit the NNJ/NYC/NE PA/SW CT/Hudson Valley regions, and those are going to impact travel to AC for a lot of people too.

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

billhoward

Draw a ring arounde the outer circle of ECAC school plus spokes from each school into Albany and it's even easier to see how Albany, charmless as it is, made sense.

That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

You're right. I think the plot is Ithaca to Colgate to Albany not Ithaca direct to Albany. And the outer ring is the indicated fastest not shortest distance. Mostly I'm in awe of the legs this thread has.

Jeff Hopkins '82
We also had one year in there with Vermont coming to Albany. And they travel very well. If I had to guess that may be the peak year for attendance in Albany.

You're right. 2005 CU, UVM, HVD, & "gate". 16,000 fans.

Josh '99

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

Except, of course, that bottom line is coming out of our pockets. Now I don't mind if they put out a better product; but personally, I don't think that AC is the better product. Now, if they were to go to Boston, I think that would be a better product and I'd spend more for it.

Albany is about 1/2 the distance from my home to AC, but I have no problem with this move. Last year it seemed as if no one[was in that depressing arena either night, and it certainly didn't feel like a big time event. At least this move might give the tournament a bit of juice that has clearly been lacking the last few years.

ECAC Polar Bear Club. Who's with me?

Trotsky
ECAC Polar Bear Club. Who's with me?

I will point and laugh. Does that count?

Josh '99

redice
And, if we're going to go that far (from Ithaca to Providence), why not just go back to Boston where we can all have a great time!!

I know, I know. It's not gonna happen in my life.....

Because Boston sucks. F Boston.

In the eye of the beholder, my friend!! We always found far more to do in Boston (in the non-hockey hours) than any other tournament venue. And, those tournaments, themselves, were an absolute blast.

I don't expect to convince you. But, want it said that Boston was fun for some of us.

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

redice

Josh '99

redice
And, if we're going to go that far (from Ithaca to Providence), why not just go back to Boston where we can all have a great time!!

I know, I know. It's not gonna happen in my life.....

Because Boston sucks. F Boston.

In the eye of the beholder, my friend!! We always found far more to do in Boston (in the non-hockey hours) than any other tournament venue. And, those tournaments, themselves, were an absolute blast.

I don't expect to convince you. But, want it said that Boston was fun for some of us.

Oh, I'm not disputing that you had fun there. Mine was more of a categorical statement than one relating to its merits as a tournament site.

Jim Hyla

Josh '99

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

Except, of course, that bottom line is coming out of our pockets. Now I don't mind if they put out a better product; but personally, I don't think that AC is the better product. Now, if they were to go to Boston, I think that would be a better product and I'd spend more for it.

Which, of course, is one of the reasons we're all upset. From our standpoint, it sucks that we're projected (and, I suppose, going to be "expected" to spend more. From the ECAC's standpoint, it's good that we're going to be spending more and some of that money will flow back to them.

Josh '99

redice

Josh '99

redice
And, if we're going to go that far (from Ithaca to Providence), why not just go back to Boston where we can all have a great time!!

I know, I know. It's not gonna happen in my life.....

Because Boston sucks. F Boston.

In the eye of the beholder, my friend!! We always found far more to do in Boston (in the non-hockey hours) than any other tournament venue. And, those tournaments, themselves, were an absolute blast.

I don't expect to convince you. But, want it said that Boston was fun for some of us.

Oh, I'm not disputing that you had fun there. Mine was more of a wrong statement than one relating to its merits as a tournament site.

FYP

Josh '99

Jim Hyla

Josh '99

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

Except, of course, that bottom line is coming out of our pockets. Now I don't mind if they put out a better product; but personally, I don't think that AC is the better product. Now, if they were to go to Boston, I think that would be a better product and I'd spend more for it.

Which, of course, is one of the reasons we're all upset. From our standpoint, it sucks that we're projected (and, I suppose, going to be "expected" to spend more. From the ECAC's standpoint, it's good that we're going to be spending more and some of that money will flow back to them.

Do we know if tickets will cost more as a result of moving to Atlantic City? Or do we mean the weekend as a whole including apparently costlier hotel rooms? The NCAA practices yield management for the basketball final four, hockey FF too, as does the NFL for the Super Bowl and finds no apparent upper limit on what we'll pay. The ECACHL has a lower pain threshhold but I recall tickets were around $20, $25 a game. I thought the NCAA's $38 a person per day for lacrosse final four tickets was high but we still went, on account of how many chances do we get?

billhoward

Josh '99
Which, of course, is one of the reasons we're all upset. From our standpoint, it sucks that we're projected (and, I suppose, going to be "expected" to spend more. From the ECAC's standpoint, it's good that we're going to be spending more and some of that money will flow back to them.

Do we know if tickets will cost more as a result of moving to Atlantic City? Or do we mean the weekend as a whole including apparently costlier hotel rooms? The NCAA practices yield management for the basketball final four, hockey FF too, as does the NFL for the Super Bowl and finds no apparent upper limit on what we'll pay. The ECACHL has a lower pain threshhold but I recall tickets were around $20, $25 a game. I thought the NCAA's $38 a person per day for lacrosse final four tickets was high but we still went, on account of how many chances do we get?

I wouldn't be surprised if the game tickets are a little higher than they have been. But it sounded to me like the city, not the venue itself, had put together the bid, so they're expecting us to spend more in AC in general than we had in Albany, therefore they'll get a greater overall benefit and could afford what they bid. If that weren't the case, all Albany would've had to do in order to keep the tournament there is increase their bid and plan to raise ticket prices accordingly.

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

billhoward
Do we know if tickets will cost more as a result of moving to Atlantic City? Or do we mean the weekend as a whole including apparently costlier hotel rooms?

If AC is anything like Vegas, costs should actually be lower. The local economy is based on pulling in the suckers to vacuum their wallets at the table.

Trotsky

billhoward
Do we know if tickets will cost more as a result of moving to Atlantic City? Or do we mean the weekend as a whole including apparently costlier hotel rooms?

If AC is anything like Vegas, costs should actually be lower. The local economy is based on pulling in the suckers to vacuum their wallets at the table.

Nope. AC gouges on hotel prices. A crappy room at the Best Western on the sketchy part of the boardwalk will run ~$250/night on the weekend.

Jim Hyla

Jeff Hopkins '82
We also had one year in there with Vermont coming to Albany. And they travel very well. If I had to guess that may be the peak year for attendance in Albany.

You're right. 2005 CU, UVM, HVD, & "gate". 16,000 fans.

I'm glad those three Harvard fans showed up to make it a nice round number.

Jim Hyla

Josh '99

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

Except, of course, that bottom line is coming out of our pockets. Now I don't mind if they put out a better product; but personally, I don't think that AC is the better product. Now, if they were to go to Boston, I think that would be a better product and I'd spend more for it.

It also should be cheaper to open up a 10,000 seat venue for two days than a 17,000 seat venue. Let's hope the extra $$$ for the ECAC comes in the way of cost savings, not revenue increases...

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I'll take "Speed Traps" for $175, Alex.

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I know the Ithaca Hippies won't like this, but it is actually just as faster to take 81 south to Binghamton and catch 88 there. It is farther, but you travel much faster. This is based on driving 70-75 on the highways. You'll also see significantly fewer speed traps on 81/88 than on the state roads through all the towns.

I did the Schenectady/Dryden trip a lot when I lived out there, and tried it several different ways and going through Binghamton was consistently the fastest.

Dpperk29

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I know the Ithaca Hippies won't like this, but it is actually just as faster to take 81 south to Binghamton and catch 88 there. It is farther, but you travel much faster. This is based on driving 70-75 on the highways. You'll also see significantly fewer speed traps on 81/88 than on the state roads through all the towns.

I did the Schenectady/Dryden trip a lot when I lived out there, and tried it several different ways and going through Binghamton was consistently the fastest.

Google maps prefers NY 96 to I88 from Ithaca. But I agree that 81/88 is faster than using the little roads.

(People drive as slow as 70 on hockey road trips? Reall? )

Dpperk29

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I know the Ithaca Hippies won't like this, but it is actually just as faster to take 81 south to Binghamton and catch 88 there. It is farther, but you travel much faster. This is based on driving 70-75 on the highways. You'll also see significantly fewer speed traps on 81/88 than on the state roads through all the towns.

I did the Schenectady/Dryden trip a lot when I lived out there, and tried it several different ways and going through Binghamton was consistently the fastest.

I guess I optimized the Kingston->Ithaca trip when the nominal interstate speed limit was lower, but I was happy to trade in the 209->17 nonsense for 28->42->23A->23->88->206->79.

KeithK

Dpperk29

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I know the Ithaca Hippies won't like this, but it is actually just as faster to take 81 south to Binghamton and catch 88 there. It is farther, but you travel much faster. This is based on driving 70-75 on the highways. You'll also see significantly fewer speed traps on 81/88 than on the state roads through all the towns.

I did the Schenectady/Dryden trip a lot when I lived out there, and tried it several different ways and going through Binghamton was consistently the fastest.

Google maps prefers NY 96 to I88 from Ithaca. But I agree that 81/88 is faster than using the little roads.

(People drive as slow as 70 on hockey road trips? Reall? )

I write a bit on GPS, mapping, and route optimization. We are still without consistently useful information about what's the best and fastest route, and GPS- and map-makers are only beginning to grapple with best routes in rush hour or during accidents. The traffic flow information you're getting now takes a lot of effort and it's still crap. Some routes are calculated by taking you to the center city and then to your destination, even if you approach from the northeast and your destination is near the northern outskirts of town. Accident and congestion re-routing often presumes the side road you're shunted onto will have traffic flow at the posted speed limit.

More than a dozen hotels in the area offer rooms for the March 20 weekend (of 2010) at less than $100. That's for being 5 to 10 miles off the boardwalk. But I agree that AC is different from Las Vegas because Vegas is so much bigger, has such a glut of hotel rooms, and isn't someplace you'd just stop by in. Vegas rates are affected most by whether there's a big convention in town, big meaning more than 100,000 attending an event.

Maybe attendance would climb if they offered limited sports wagering. Not on the outcome, but say on whether Cornell hits on its first power play. Or who draws the first penalty or scores the first goal. I wonder if the ECACHL negotiated a dry or wet arena. Or if the VIP seats have keno runners.

Robb

Jim Hyla

Josh '99

billhoward
The more you look at a map, the more you wonder: Who ticked off whom in the Albany-ECAC negotiations? Or did Atlantic City just overpay? Or is there an innocent explanation?

I think it's already been established that Atlantic City made a strong financial offer, which is an innocent explanation; there's nothing wrong, per se, with the league looking out for its bottom line.

Except, of course, that bottom line is coming out of our pockets. Now I don't mind if they put out a better product; but personally, I don't think that AC is the better product. Now, if they were to go to Boston, I think that would be a better product and I'd spend more for it.

It also should be cheaper to open up a 10,000 seat venue for two days than a 17,000 seat venue. Let's hope the extra $$$ for the ECAC comes in the way of cost savings, not revenue increases...

Probably marginal savings if any. In a bigger arena you hire ticket takers and concession people to handle a crowd of 10,000, and close off the upper deck so it doesn't need to be cleaned. IIRC, didn't Albany drape off parts of the upper deck so you didn't see the thousands of empty seats?

billhoward

KeithK

Dpperk29

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

jtwcornell91
That's not the best way to get to Albany from Ithaca, or the North Country.

There's no GOOD way to get to Albany from Ithaca.

You have something against the lovely people of Bainbridge and Greene?

I know the Ithaca Hippies won't like this, but it is actually just as faster to take 81 south to Binghamton and catch 88 there. It is farther, but you travel much faster. This is based on driving 70-75 on the highways. You'll also see significantly fewer speed traps on 81/88 than on the state roads through all the towns.

I did the Schenectady/Dryden trip a lot when I lived out there, and tried it several different ways and going through Binghamton was consistently the fastest.

Google maps prefers NY 96 to I88 from Ithaca. But I agree that 81/88 is faster than using the little roads.

(People drive as slow as 70 on hockey road trips? Reall? )

I write a bit on GPS, mapping, and route optimization. We are still without consistently useful information about what's the best and fastest route, and GPS- and map-makers are only beginning to grapple with best routes in rush hour or during accidents. The traffic flow information you're getting now takes a lot of effort and it's still crap. Some routes are calculated by taking you to the center city and then to your destination, even if you approach from the northeast and your destination is near the northern outskirts of town. Accident and congestion re-routing often presumes the side road you're shunted onto will have traffic flow at the posted speed limit.

You think it is bad now? Wait until a GPS system announces that it has optimized the route. If it takes you off of the interstate, those smaller roads will become parking lots.

A few years ago, when the technology was still relatively new, I was fooling around with Mapquest or Yahoo maps or a similar mainstream program. I was getting directions from Ithaca to Rochester, and the program was taking me through Syracuse instead of up the west side of Cayuga Lake. Just for kicks I changed my end point to Geneva, NY, and the route given still took me completely out of the way, through Syracuse. My conclusion was that the software believed the Finger Lakes were essentially one large body of water, so would not route between them, but rather around them.

One time, I detoured off the freeway to avoid a back-up at an ramp from DE-1 onto I-95. The GPS took us through a parking lot for a shopping mall and onto a back exit from the mall that lead directly onto I-95.

So sometimes these things do work.

Jeff Hopkins '82
One time, I detoured off the freeway to avoid a back-up at an ramp from DE-1 onto I-95. The GPS took us through a parking lot for a shopping mall and onto a back exit from the mall that lead directly onto I-95.So sometimes these things do work.

You're describing a system malfunction if the GPS worked exactly as you hoped it would. You probably should have stuck a paper clip into the little reset hole in back until it started messing up the alternate routing. Kind of like Windows only in a smaller box. (Yesterday I went to a couple of the Windows 7 rollouts and all I could think was, Windows Vista Make-Good Launch Party. Someday MS will catch up to Apple on ease of use and user delight, and Apple will catch down on price.)

billhoward
Someday MS will catch up to Apple on ease of use and user delight, and Apple will catch down on price.)

That's been the status quo for 25+ years now - how on earth can you be optimistic that either of those wishes will come true?

And my personal experience with ALL mapping software (Google Maps, Tom Tom GPS, Toyota Prius In-Dash navigation in a rental one time) has been quite good. Freakishly good, in fact.

Robb

billhoward
And my personal experience with ALL mapping software (Google Maps, Tom Tom GPS, Toyota Prius In-Dash navigation in a rental one time) has been quite good. Freakishly good, in fact.

Same.

When I first got mine I would use it when I was going places I already knew how to get to, just to see if it would come up with a faster route, and several times it did. Granted, a few times it took me longer ways and I had to decide that I knew more than the little box on my dash board.

 

___________________________
"That damn bell at Clarkson." -Ken Dryden in reference to his hatred for the Clarkson Bell.

Robb

billhoward
Someday MS will catch up to Apple on ease of use and user delight, and Apple will catch down on price.)

That's been the status quo for 25+ years now - how on earth can you be optimistic that either of those wishes will come true? And my personal experience with ALL mapping software (Google Maps, Tom Tom GPS, Toyota Prius In-Dash navigation in a rental one time) has been quite good. Freakishly good, in fact.

[Drift upon drift] Any GPS system gets you there eventually. When a traveler doesn’t know the route and the routing engine adds 10 mins to a 60-minute trip, the magic is that he got there, period. All are unrealistic at estimating travel times in and around big cities; most think I can make the 120 miles from NJ to New Haven at rush hour in 2:05. No navigation system has the detail you want - when we went to the NCAA semis three years ago in Baltimore for that heartbreaker loss to Duke, it got us to the stadium but not to our parking lot D, and for two grand and the data stored on a 40GB hard disk, it ouught to know that so we avoid 15 extra minutes driving around the stadium access roads, just as it ought to know (and someday will) when you can and can't drive across the Cornell main campus roads. $2K in-car GPS typically does not display highway speed limits; cheap portable GPS’s do. Real time traffic misses many traffic tie-ups; its value is when it shows a long delay, say 20 minutes or more, that you hunt around for a traffic radio station with actual info.

Garmin is the best in portable devices and you pay a bit more. BMW (currently using Becker components, previously Siemens VDO) is about the best with in-dash GPS once you get past the iDrive interface (which is much better now). BMW and Mercedes let you send routes to the car from Google; GM OnStar with its premium service lets you have OnStar download the route with a phone call but only one stop at a time and you can’t be routed via X (eg Tappan Zee Bridge when you know it’s dumb to cross the George Washington in northern Manhattan). Pioneer in-dash (factory OEM) are good too but few automakers use it. Lexus / Toyota / Prius (Denso) used to be state of the art but stalled a couple years ago but now their most current rev is better. And the Lexus Remote Touch (big joystick) controller is easy for idiots to master, more so than iDrive, and people think of that as part of the navigation experience. Infiniti (usng Xanavi, now being adopted by Ford) does the best job integrating onto one display the GPS data plus your cell signal strength, name of incoming caller, plus the cockpit HVAC settings and your entertainment info while BMW does it best by creating a split screen (it's 10 inches wide). Verizon's VZ Navigator is really good on cellphones. All cellphones need a compass to orient themselves, else when in pedestrian mode you have to walk a block or two to know if you're heading north or south.

Distractions are an issue when you're driving. When head-up displays cost $250 not $1200 every car will have one and the next turn arrow is floating just above the hood. Technology makes it hard to screw up. Not impossible. I just drove a BMW 7 Series with $20K of tech options and it was cool to see in the dark via the LCD display IR camera, but the car costs two-plus years of Cornell tuition room and board. Hyundai has gotten built in navigation down to $1250; no reason (I think) it can’t be $500 if you used industry standard components and reskinned the interface so Subaru’s looked different from Honda’s.

If you’re buying a portable device, I think the most important thing is screen size, followed by spoken street names (Left of Campus Road not Next Left in 400 feet). That is, after accuracy of the routing engine, where Garman and TomTom are really good.

andyw2100
My conclusion was that the software believed the Finger Lakes were essentially one large body of water, so would not route between them, but rather around them.

I'm curious how a GPS with that mistaken impression would route you from Ithaca to Ovid or Trumansburg.

billhoward
...and Apple will catch down on price.

You, of all people, should know better to fall back on hackneyed fallacies like that. On the other hand, me of all people should know better than to expect you to know better.

Sam Paolini supports the move.

[blog.collegehockeynews.com]

ebilmes
Sam Paolini supports the move.

[blog.collegehockeynews.com]

Yeah, but from the article...

Paolini
“They will sell out the place and when it is full, it gets really really loud. The acoustics in there are phenomenal.”

“Ice was always good except for the few occasions when we had over 8k in the building which was rare. Interesting to see how it will hold up with games back-to-back two nights in a row. My thought is it will be pretty choppy with that much play and fans in the building.

There was some question about locker room facilities in AC.

“I’ve been in both the home and visitor dressing rooms for games and they are nice,” Paolini said. “Both are better than the visiting Albany rooms. Not sure what they will use for the other two though. Nice training room in the home room too

So, we'll sell out the place, it'll be loud, but the ice will be bad (choppy). They've got two good locker rooms, maybe the teams have to just go bunk (did I just make that up?)

But if the teams can't really get ready for the games, and the ice may lead to terrible bounces and bad goals; well at least we've got this.

Bottom line:

“Having it in AC will be great for fans too as they will be able to visit the casinos, go to shows, and have more options than Albany,” Paolini said.

Bad hockey, but we can gamble.

Jim Hyla
]Bad hockey, but we can gamble.

If you don't want to gamble, there are other ways for you to entertain yourself in Atlantic City.

We can go to shows? I think most of the shows (at least the ones as the casinos ) will at the same time as the hockey games.

cbuckser

Jim Hyla
]Bad hockey, but we can gamble.

If you don't want to gamble, there are other ways for you to entertain yourself in Atlantic City.

You don't consider sleeping with a prostitute gambling? Sure you are going to lose your money, but you might make it out without any STDs, which would be a win.

Last week, Hagwell was interviewed by Ken Schott on his weekly college hockey radio segment (Slap Schotts). It can still be listened to (see 10/8/09) [www.foxsports980.com]. It's the first interview on the show.

“Glass was always loud when there were hits which excited fans. It is horseshoe shaped and not having stands behind one of the nets takes away something from the fans in my opinion..."

Interesting comment coming from a former Cornellian

Dpperk29

You don't consider sleeping with a prostitute gambling? Sure you are going to lose your money, but you might make it out without any STDs, which would be a win.

You don't lose your money. You exchange it for services rendered. Just like a haircut, a massage, a pedicure, or other remunerated handling of your body.

CK

Today's New York Times looks at Atlantic City: [www.nytimes.com]

Al DeFlorio
Today's New York Times looks at Atlantic City: [www.nytimes.com]

Disclaimer: I've never been to Albany for ECAC hockey weekend, but this article didn't inspire cartwheels over the ECAC move to AC. For me, the only attraction of AC (considering my "gambling" is limited penny poker games with friends) is the beach, which may or may not be walkable in March.

And apparently, the ECAC championship weekend is not playing a major role in AC's economic revival.

Rita
And apparently, the ECAC championship weekend is not playing a major role in AC's economic revival.

That's awfully hard to believe!!

Tom Boggie of "The Hockey News" reports that the three no votes to the move were Clk, SLU and Dmth.

Jim Hyla
Tom Boggie of "The Hockey News" reports that the three no votes to the move were Clk, SLU and Dmth.

Does the article report the alternative(s)?

Trotsky

Jim Hyla
Tom Boggie of "The Hockey News" reports that the three no votes to the move were Clk, SLU and Dmth.

Does the article report the alternative(s)?

No, but the implication was staying at Albany.

Is it possible that reporters on expense accounts will be more willing to travel to AC than Albany, and perhaps the tournament will get better coverage?

nshapiro
Is it possible that reporters on expense accounts will be more willing to travel to AC than Albany, and perhaps the tournament will get better coverage?

I guess anything is possible, but so it gets better coverage. How does that help? Their whole complaint seemed to be attendance. Maybe better press helps attendance the next year?

So if it's Yale, us, Union, and RPI this year, what do you think attendance will be. Can we go out in a splash and get a crowd that Atlantic City will never reach?

We can only hope, Jim.

Jim Hyla
So if it's Yale, us, Union, and RPI this year, what do you think attendance will be. Can we go out in a splash and get a crowd that Atlantic City will never reach?

I wish as a season ticket holder at the RIP Morgue that I could predict a good turn out but I really think it's a crap shoot. Union will draw if they get in but their community is smaller and just like RIP, they have trouble drawing fans to their own rink. Two games that do draw each year at Messa are RIP and Cornell.

I hope the attendance is up this year regardless of the teams involved. The downward trend was at least partly responsible for the switch to Atlantic City.

Al DeFlorio
Who on the Jersey shore gives a hoot?

Enter photo-shopped pic of Snookie and The Situation in the Harvard pep band, here.

Jim Hyla
So if it's Yale, us, Union, and RPI this year, what do you think attendance will be. Can we go out in a splash and get a crowd that Atlantic City will never reach?

Hopefully not Yale, both from attendance and likelihood-of-winning perspectives.

Josh '99

Jim Hyla
So if it's Yale, us, Union, and RPI this year, what do you think attendance will be. Can we go out in a splash and get a crowd that Atlantic City will never reach?

Hopefully not Yale, both from attendance and likelihood-of-winning perspectives.

Bring em on. Gotta beat em sometime.